Home   Forum   Wiki   Notes   Register   FAQ   Sitemap   About Us   Contact Us  

Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

The popular notation used on this page. The twelve notes of an octave are the following.

1   2   3   4   5   6   7  8   9  10  11  12
S  R1  R2  R3  G3  M1  M2  P  D1  D2  D3  N3
       G1  G2                     N1  N2

Download/Upload raga based songs.

"Raga based film songs" Database | Old Database | Indian Classical Music Forum | Hindi Raaga of Songs Thread

---

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.241) on: Fri Aug 2 12:56:57 EDT 2002
  
  Can an MD change the preset Bhava of a song ? Yes.
  
  Is it easy ?
  no.
  
  How does he do it ?
  usage of chords.
  
  Let me take an example - Shankarabaranam. when u hear the varnam - "saami ninne kOri" or the krithi "raghuvamshapathe pari paalayamaam", u can hardly imagine how this raga can be used for pathos. However, when carnatic dwells only on the swaras, light music needs more expression and also supported by harmony. Hence the accompanying chord progression of a song would greatly influence the mood. The raga shankarabaranam is used to create innumerable western melancholies.
  
  some examples(discard occassional/accidental dilutions):
  
  (1)IR- uravugaL thodarkathai, nilaave vaa
  (2)SG - oh nenje nee dhaan paadum
  (3)ARR- thoda thoda malarndhadhenna, oh veNNilaa, en kaadhale en kaadhali
  
  All the above mentioned songs are kind of pathos/romance songs.
  
  the way IR has handled this raga is amazing. Some examples are:
  
  (1) Vandhe maatharam - from kaalapaani - superb song drenched in energy and also a little underlining pathos
  
  (2) azagiya malargaLain pudhu vidha oorvalame - a peppy song.
  
  But we need to stop here to ponder over an important factor. Shankarabaranam is a 'major' scale in western notation. Tons of western numbers can be found in this scale for romance,pathos and peppy moods. So what decides the song's expression ? IMO, it is the chord progression.
  
  Let us take C major scale (shankarabaranam in 1 kattai). some associated chords are:
  
  Dminor,Eminor,Fmajor,Gmajor,Aminor.
  
  As a general rule, when the song needs a pathos tinge, MDs use minor chords and for a little 'happy' sounding songs they use major chords. for example, when the note D (ri2) appears in the song, the MD has two choices: use Gmajor or Dminor. The usage of latter would amount to a 'pathos' touch.
  
  When ShankarabaraNam is sung 'around' ri2, ga2 and/or d2 it generates a pathos feeling. The reason is the inherent 'mohanam' effect in these 3 swaras.
  
  (Notation - usually major chords are represented by their note and minor chords are represented by an 'm' following their note. e.g. Cmajor is written as C and Cminor as Cm)
  
  For example :
  
  oh nenje nee dhaan paadum geethangaL
  
  swaras - sa ri ga ga ga pa ga ri sa ri
  
  chords - C C Am Am G G Dm G
  
  We can clearly see that, there is a lot of minor chords' usage in the very first line. An MD has the following choices of chords :
  
  Sa - C,Am
  ri - G,Dm
  ga - C,Em,Am
  ma - F,Dm
  pa - C,G,Em
  dha - F,Am,Dm
  ni - G,Em
  
  (I have deliberately left out seventh and allied chords to make this simple)
  
  As u can see, for the swara Ga, u have a choice of using C,Am and Em. So, when the MD uses, Am it generates a strong pathos effect. This is how MDs go about venturing into the Bhavam part of the raga.
  
  
• From: Vasu (@ 192.35.232.13) on: Fri Aug 2 13:01:17 EDT 2002
  
  s0,
  
  To answer some of your questions:
  
  1. Yes two ragas can have same swaras yet differ by gamakams and bhavam. To quote popular examples, Arabhi-Devagandhari has same swaras yet they are different in gamakams and/or emphasis on certain swaras. Take Abheri-Bhimplasi - again same swaras but bhimplasi sounds a bit more folksy.
  
  2. Yes. Bhavam/emotion is a subjective thing. Is a raga defined that way? - the answer is yes and no. Any music involves a psycho-acoustic factor to it, since its the mind that perceives it. When someone says that this is the bhavam associated with a raga - it doesnot mean that the raga is not associated with anything else. The fact is that a certain set of notes invokes a certain set of emotions in the human mind more frequently than other feelings. For eg, mohanam certainly invokes a happy mood more frequently than anyother feeling. In occasions, the same mohanam can bring a sad feeling too, for eg an old woman is sitting next to you in a bus :). The converse example would be true with subhapantuvarali. Good musicians constantly redefine ragas. If Ilayaraja can bring a "thamash" song out of subhapantuvarali - good for him - it only means a different facet of the raga that which was hitherto unknown. This makes a raga rich than confounding itself to "mohanam is happy; sivaranjani is pathos". What is implied when some one says mohanam is a happy raga is that the raga brings a happy feeling at "normal temperature and pressure", but that may not be the ONLY case.
  
  3. Do the swaras themselves convey the bhava? A factor to consider would be how the swaras are sung. If KJY sings a Ayyappan bhajan it certainly has a kind of bhakti that may not be felt if somebody else is singing. Many times we hear from critics that a certain performance lacks bhava. Does it mean that swaras lack bhava? No. In this case, it is the singer who failed to transform the swaras into giving rise a bhava. Conversely there are times, when a mood is created just by humming a few swaras for oneself - like that of thodi or bhairavi. The idea is that the swaras and bhavas are an interplay of music and mind.
  
  
• From: Ram (@ ) on: Fri Aug 2 13:19:33 EDT 2002
  
  I have one more doubt,
  Let's suppose I sing Shankarabaranam,then shud I always follow "sa ri ga ma pa da ni sa" in order....or If I use a hamsadhwani prayogam in a few lines "sa ni pa ga ri sa" is it still Shankarabaranam?...or is that SB+Hamsadwani...in other words have I erred according to the grammar of carnatic music....I dunno whether I make myself clear or not....letz take an exmaple "Malai en Vedhanai"...it is based on Kedaram...but the lines "Veguthe en manam mogathile" is typical Hamsadhwani prayogam.....so according to carnatic purists shud I call it Kedaram diluted with Hamsadhwani or can I still call it kedaram only(as it doesn't use ne swara which is not there in kedaram)
  
  
• From: a very dazed Sindhuja! (@ 203.200.5.69) on: Fri Aug 2 13:52:13 EDT 2002
  
  Gosh!oru 5 maNinEram kutcheri poittu varathukuLLa ivLO nadanduduthA inga?????!!!
  Extremely informative.Great stuff guys!
  (ROS vAzhga!! :) )
  Ram,as far as my knowledge(which is unfortunately very limited) goes,u can use the swarAs of a rAgA in NE order,other than the orders,which define another rAgA all together.(kozhappitEnA?)
  Eg.,in ShankarAbharaNam,u can sing the swarAs in NE order other than those which already exist as other rAgAs.So,if u sing a S R G P D S or a
  S R G P N S,u R indeed defining another rAgA totally.Even though these swarAs very much belong to ShBh,when sung in that particular order,they give rise to an entirely new rAgA(that's what sets and subsets R all abt.,right?)Hmmmm...what do our mentors have to say...? ;-)
  Well,today's concert-ShankarAbharaNam by mallAdi bros..(brilliant singing!)
  Abt. the rAgam-quite a well known fact that it was originally called ShankarAbharaNam and the prefix "dheera" was added to suit to the katapayadi formula.Venkatamakhi is supposed to have called this rAgam "rAgarAjA" or "king of all rAgAs".All 7 r jiva swarAs.Due to the combination of these particular swarAs,this rAgam can be employed to evoke ANY BHAVAM/RASA.This is the speciality of this rAgam.
  (trivia on dEvagAndhAri-TyAgarAja is supposed to have done AlApanA in this rAgA for 3 hours for 8 consecutive days when in Chennai and also composed a song each time he finished the AlApanA!!)
  the songs sung today-1)jalajAkshi-hamsadhwani varNam,2)harinArAyaNa-kEdAram,3)anubhava-athANA,4)telisirAma,5)karpagAmbikE-bilahari,6)ninnadanella-kannadA,7)kAlaharaNa-Shuddha sAveri,8)manavyAlakim,9)rAgam tAnam pallavi-ShBh. with swarams in the same rAgam,devagAndhAri and Arabhi,10)mAdhavamAmava,11)muddugAra yashodha-kurinji.
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Fri Aug 2 13:53:38 EDT 2002
  
  MS: can you please store these discussions (until we start "digressing" :-) ) in a file and provide separate links? Thanks.
  
  Vel, IR, Vasu: Thanks a lot. I think you all have given me a quite a wealth of information (which gives me some ideas to pursue my own academic research in music perception :-) ). Thanks a lot. Vasu, you wrote "The fact is that a certain set of notes invokes a certain set of emotions in the human mind more frequently than other feelings". (with a little modification) Bingo. (I think it's not the certain set of notes but a certain combination of notes). I also like the statistical interpretation. Thanks a lot man.
  
  MS: I haven't listened to the song Oh nenjE nI dhAn but anyways, I-VI-V-I is a very common movement (sprinkled all over the place in rock). i dont think that really gives the bhAvan for this song. Also, when you sing the first line without any accompaniment (even imaginary), you could still feel the sOgam. i dont think that bhAvams reside (mostly?) in the chord progression in film music. i think in even in film songs, the melody place a main role in defining the emotion of the song. for ex., dhEva sangItham nIyallO is a very linear composition; as i understand, it doesn't move much beyond Cm (i think I am correct here; it's long time since i heard this song also) much, but still the inner conflict is apparent even in the word dhEva. well, ... my 0.2 cent worth :-)
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.241) on: Fri Aug 2 14:11:16 EDT 2002
  
  aruL:
  
  Yes. As I had been assuring all for a while, all the good discussion in DF (and hence ROS) will be collected and stored in a library for easy access.
  
  YEs it is a common movement. But, what I failed to mention in my write up is that, chord progression is just one of the many factors that govern the bhavam. Two very important factors are the meter (sandham) and the pace of the song. A slow dragging song may sound more sad than a pacy number.
  
  I have mentioned in my earlier post that 'hanging around' sa,ri,ga, and dha in Shankarabaranam produces a little pathos due to the inherent mohanam present in these swaras. Ragas like hindholam and revathi are meant to be for 'aathmaartha' songs. But MSV-SPB combo uses hindholam to tease a girl ("namma orru singaari singapooru vandhaaLAm") and TR-SPB uses Revathi to have give a westernish love duet ("Julie I love you"). It seems like, it is really difficult to answer question - what governs the bhavam - when MDs use their cleverness to churn out numbers which have a non-conventional feel.
  
  
• From: Ram (@ 134.121.73.124) on: Fri Aug 2 14:15:19 EDT 2002
  
  meter,sandham rendum oNNa veraiyaa?
  
  

---

List all pages of this thread

Post comments