Home   Forum   Wiki   Notes   Register   FAQ   Sitemap   About Us   Contact Us  

Poetry vs Lyrics

Topic started by Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on Tue Feb 23 21:55:02 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Is Kannadasan a poet or a lyricist ? Indha Katru Veliyidai Kannamma - is this a poem because the author intended it to be poetry and not a lyric ? How different is it in quality from, say, Singarak Kanne Un Thenoorum Sevvayal ?

---

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Wed Feb 24 14:09:37 EST 1999
  
  From now on i am not going to compare , but will certainly defend my arguments on the practicality and the scope in kavingar's lyrics. Did somebody say "kannadasan's lines had limited impact?!" . Huh, i think one does not have paid closer attention to the lines 'thAnAdavillayammA sathaiyAduthu'. These words not only fitted the movie situation but created an emotional , inverterate feeling in me that i still have the movie situation in my mind . If someone says this does not have impinging effect in their mind, then god be there for their sobbing soul. The words may have been used from a 'saying' times immemorial, but adopting the concept so well to the situation is where the focus should be. If someone says it is 'copying a proverb', then just take a journey to the heavens where they can have everything original including the definition of that term. Now, before i get ruffled into criticizing those verses of other poet which have become sterile, i stop right here!
  
  (Ramki , sorry for my aggravation here ;-)))
  
  
• From: Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on: Wed Feb 24 14:12:39 EST 1999
  
  Language used by Bharathi and Kannadasan:
  
  When Bharathi wrote, the Tamil used by the average poet was not understandable. Why poetry, try reading Thiru. Vi. Ka. who is supposed to hv written in very easy Tamil today, it is difficult at places. So Bharathi wrote in pamaranukku puriyum Tamil then.
  
  So did Kannadasan. But Kannadasan had an added constraint - he was writing for the front benchers too. He had to necessarily use simple Tamil.
  
  So does VM. He writes in an idiom which makes "sense" to the young generation. I can very easily imagine a youngster weaned on VM saying 15 years hence Kannadasan wrote in complicated Tamil; "atthikkai kai kai" enna pattu idhu onnume puriyale!
  
  
  
• From: Ramki (@ pm062-22.spindler.wmich.edu) on: Wed Feb 24 14:25:50 EST 1999
  
  Bhoori what is Kollo??:)
  
  Is suttum related to sudum or kuthum?He could have used kuthum:)))
  
  
• From: Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on: Wed Feb 24 14:26:49 EST 1999
  
  IMO:
  
  Lyrics in general hv addl constraints viz.
  
  1. It has to hv a meter. ( Pudhuk Kavidhai pattakkaradhu kashtam. ) so that a tune can be found for it.
  
  2. Mettukku Pattu: more trouble here, obviously.
  
  3. Time constraints. Even in the heydeys of Kannadasan, producers are not going to wait for a couple of years before the lyric is written.
  
  In the pre-Pudhuk Kavidhai days, poetry also had to hv a meter. ( All Bharathis songs typically hv a raga and tala associated with them. ). They also hv to obey the grammar. But these things constrain poetry to a lesser degree than lyrics
  
  Somebody had written the lyrics hv to correspond to a situation which adds another constraint. The poem also hv to deal with a topic so I dont think that this is unique constraint to lyric - unless one writes stream of consciousness poetry.
  
  Simple words could be construed as another constraint for lyrics. I beleive that the words get used depending on era you live in. I find many of Papanasam Sivans lyrics give me pause.
  
  Bharathis greatness is in writing forceful poetry over a wide range of topics in simple Tamil - thus revolutionizing poetry and in general, Tamil writing.
  
  Kannadasans greatness is in transcending the barriers of lyric writing and actually converting most of his lyrics into poems. Even though it is psychologically impossible for me to separate the music from words in his songs, the words alone ring so true so often that he occupies a unique place in TFM. Nobody else, not Pattukkottai ( comparatively, too few songs ), not Vali ( probably the most talented, but compromised and didnt make an effort to convert lyrics into poetry. ), not VM ( pretentious, more hot air than substance ) can equal him in this respect. Though I would say Pattukkottai, Ku. Ma. Balasubramaniam and Suratha were pretty good at this but didnt produce enough.
  
  
• From: Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on: Wed Feb 24 14:30:22 EST 1999
  
  Kollo is something like a preposition, even though it is a separate word. It converts a statement to a question.
  
  
• From: Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on: Wed Feb 24 14:31:30 EST 1999
  
  Neither Sudum nor Kutthum. Suttum is pointing!
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Wed Feb 24 14:35:49 EST 1999
  
  Bhoori,
  though pattukkOttai is not closer to kavingar in terms of versatality , he indeed did produce some memorable lyrics.
  
  "oru padaithanil thoogiyaval vetRiyizhanthAn
  uyar paLLiyil thoogiyavan kalvi izhanthAn
  kadaithanil thoongiyavan muthal izhanthAn
  konda kadamayil thoongiyavan pugazh izhanthAn
  innum poRuppuLLa manithargaL thookkaththinAl pala poNNAna velaiyellAm thoonguthappA"
  
  this message will always be remembered even if you go to moon and start your life there!
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Wed Feb 24 15:29:48 EST 1999
  
  the best places where lyrics can come equal to poetry are when the kavignar is given a free hand in writing a song, and the tune is made later. This is pretty much the reason why generally lyrics in earlier days were much better than the lyrics thesedays.
  and another difference comes in the methodology of judging the relative merits of lyrics and poetry. a poem makes much more impact due to its meaning ( or the now controversial "inner meaning":-) ) whereas lyrics make an impact both due to its meaning and its nadai & wordflow. for lyrics, sol nadai and porul nadai are extremely important. whereas, in genres like free verse, the nadai isn't as important as the contents. given such a constraint, lyrics which contain deep meaning need to be applauded. my personal favourite is this:
  
  chinna chinna kannanukku ennathaan punnagaiyO
  kannirandum thaamaraiyO kannam minnum endhan kaNNA
  
  ......
  oruvarin thudippinilE viLaivadhu kavidhaiyadA
  iruvarin thudippinilE viLaivadhu mazhalaiyadA
  ...
  pooppOndra nenjinilum muLLirukkum bhoomiyadaa
  pollaadha kaNgaLadaa punnagaiyin vEshamadaa
  nandri ketta maandharadaa naanarindha paadamadaa
  piLLaiyaai irundhu vittAl illai oru thollaiyadaa
  
  this will definitely be classified as exceptional lyrics and great poetry (unless someone finds an "inner meaning" to it:-) )
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Wed Feb 24 16:42:54 EST 1999
  
  If the inner meanings are so antagonizing , one can be satiated with the 'peripheral'(!) meaning in the other's lyrics;-))
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Wed Feb 24 16:48:07 EST 1999
  
  rameshb: peripheral meaningaa, adhu thaan most central meaning-aa irukkum:-))))
  
  
• From: Gokul (@ gatekeeper.ohioedison.com) on: Wed Feb 24 18:22:05 EST 1999
  
  bb, the kannan song you mentioned is good. But, the *deep meaning* seems very obvious.
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ spider-tk064.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Feb 24 22:01:38 EST 1999
  
  A poet's creations reflect his ideas, aspirations,ambitions and his characteristics, contrary to a lyricist where he is supposed to deliver stuff which caters to the director's needs. I was just reading some of bharati's creations and came across few interesting lines which exhibit his crass desire.
  "kaani nilam vEndum parAsakthi
  kaani nilam vEndum angu
  thoonil azhagiyathAi nanmAdangaL
  thuyyA niRaththinathAi antha
  kaani nilaththidaiyE oru mALigai
  kattiththara vEndum angu
  kENiyaruginilE thennai maram
  keetRu miLa neerum
  paththu pannirendu thennai maram
  pakkththilE vEnum nalla
  muththu chudar pOlE nivavoLi
  munbu vara vEnum angu
  kaththum kuyilOsai satRE vanthu
  kAthiRpada vEnum enthan
  siththam magizhnthidavE nandRaiLan
  thendRal vara vEnum
  pAttu kalanthidavE angEyoru
  paththiNi pEN vEnum engaL
  koottu kaLiyinilE kavithaigal
  koNduthara vEnum..."
  This shows a real bad side of bharathi for having asked to be supplied with a 'paththini' to fulfill his sexual desires . Not a slut!. Even if he has mentioned his usual kannamma ponnamma stuff, i would have accepted it. But this is just breaking the very definition of 'paththini' which has been maintained by our traditions and culture from times immemorial. This is highly impractical as no 'paththini' would do a thing in a perfidious manner for money sake , and if she does she loses the definition. Disgusting verses!
  
  
• From: Eye-specialist Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Thu Feb 25 03:38:35 EST 1999
  
  Ramesh: You have grossly misunderstood his implications. Since you seem to be wearing a green glass, I am , though I normally dont give up so early, disinclined to explain. I am reminded of the scene in Poove Poochoodava where SVsekar's mother wears the glass that is supposed to discern through clothes and when Sekar asks with trepidation what she is seeing , it so happens she is in a room which is full of green objects(curtains etc.); she replies "Ore pachai pachaiya irukku" to which Sekar's reaction will be of trepidation and he runs away to hide behind the curtain.
  
  I hope you remove that glass:)
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ spider-wb041.proxy.aol.com) on: Thu Feb 25 05:56:05 EST 1999
  
  Raj,
  'Koottu KaLiyinilE' clearly shows the implications. If he had wished to only to play, he should have just said 'kaLiyinilE'. And even for that purpose there is no need to ask for 'paththini', could have wished 'kannamma' to be around. The use of the word 'paththini' is totally ridiculous and only is only vitiating the purity of its definition and is debasing. It is certainly an improper usage and deserves severe criticism.
  
  I think you are wearing a white(romba veLLaiyAna manasO?!) glass that filters a thing from going into your mind. Whether you want to remove or not is up to you. ;-))
  
  BTW, filter glass, pachchai,discerning clothes, reminded me of another movie 'netRik kaN'. 'theerAtha viLayAttu piLLai ivan singAra manmathan thAn santhEgam illai ....';-))
  
  
• From: chandy71 (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Thu Feb 25 10:51:04 EST 1999
  
  Hello people :
  
  Why should a demand for a "pathini" be misunderstood and criticised? Bharathi is asking for all that he wants right from kaani nilam to pathini pen... is that wrong? Whats wrong is desiring for a nice pathini pen for "kootu kalai" or for cooking purposes. He has every right to demand a pathini pen - as long as she isnt someone else's wife :-) And how do you interpret "pathini"??.. Pathini could be his own wife or his beloved or kannama!!
  
  
  
• From: pae (@ global22.citicorp.com) on: Thu Feb 25 11:33:26 EST 1999
  
  Looks like a HUB TOPIC
  
  

---

List all pages of this thread

Post comments