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Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

The popular notation used on this page. The twelve notes of an octave are the following.

1   2   3   4   5   6   7  8   9  10  11  12
S  R1  R2  R3  G3  M1  M2  P  D1  D2  D3  N3
       G1  G2                     N1  N2

"Raga based film songs" Database | Old Database | Indian Classical Music Forum | Hindi Raaga of Songs Thread

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 17:37:41 EST 2002
  
  hihi : I was talking to Srikanth about your posting and he clarified something.
  
  A 3/4 has a cycle of |123| only. Initially, we thought 3/4 has a cycle of |123|123|123|.
  
  In Carnatic terms - this cycle is just a plain thisra nadai and not roopaka thaLam thisra nadai, as assumed earlier.
  
  Now, having clarified that, you are right when u say 3 beats of 1/4 duration per beat, per WCM definition.
  
  Now translating it into Carnatic - thisra Nadai is "Tha Ki Ta" - WCM considers "tha" as one beat "ki" as another beat and "ta" as the third beat - where as the entire "tha ki ta" is considered as one beat (thisra nadai) in carnatic music - with a duration of 3 aksharam for that single beat.
  
  One Aksharam in carnatic music seems to be equal to 1/4 note or one beat in WCM:-) Happada....
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Jan 24 17:44:09 EST 2002
  
  IR, then athi should be represented as 4/4 and not 8/4, illaya? if you take "tha ka thi mi" as 4 equivalent western beats of 1/4th note each.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Jan 24 17:48:02 EST 2002
  
  actually it should be 32/4, if you consider the whole cycle :-)
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 17:51:20 EST 2002
  
  vijay :-) per this latest and greatest definition - 4/4 probably just means the Chathusra nadai - it could be either aadhi or ekam polarkku :-) as u said we need 8 cycles of 4/4 for one aadhi thalam cycle - exactly 32/4 :-) deivameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Jan 24 17:54:02 EST 2002
  
  IR that means today morning both of them were wrong ;-) its neither 4/4 or 8/4 (adikka vara poraanga)
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 17:55:18 EST 2002
  
  ROFL vijay :-)
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 17:58:36 EST 2002
  
  I honestly feel we should move all this discussion out of this thread - I am sure this would scare the regulars here :-)
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Jan 24 17:59:02 EST 2002
  
  IR, thanks for all the clarifications..I think we will let you esacpe for today :-)
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Jan 24 18:37:41 EST 2002
  
  m... here are my thoughts:
  
  (1) cross-genre (western-carnatic) representation of rhythm is inherently confusing because of difference in the treatment of "time". to make it clear: the aksharam in western music is hardwired in to the tempo. in sheets, one could often see at the top of the page a symbol (for a note, half-note, ...) an "equal to" sign and a number. this means that that type of note appears so many times in a minute. and usually, the same type of note is used to give the time signature (like 3/4; 6/8; ...). in carnatic music, this aksharam business seems to be a free parameter (tho' many people have a common ground; imho, it seems to me that quaternote ~=110). so in essence, someones reNdAnmkAlam could be my mUNAnkAlam :-) (i am that slow :-) )
  
  (2) 4/4, 8/8, (similarly 3/4, 6/8)... all these ARE same to me because they are nothing more than a scaling of eaching other.
  
  (3) the difference between these scaled versions are perceptible only when the accent is not on the samam (i.e., if the accent is not on the first beat of measure). accent can be any change in rhythm (timing or volume or instrumental...) or a complete absence of percussion (endhan nenjil is a good example). (many TFS, especially a lot of rAjA's songs, do not have accent on the samam.)
  
  (4) when the accent always/predominantly is on the samam then the scaling loses meaning (for me).
  
  (5) there are only two type of (simple) time signatures (~=nadais): 2/x and 3/x. every other signature (nadai?) can be obtained as a combination of these two.
  
  (6) it's time to find a proper guru to decloud my cluttered brain :-))
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.227.74) on: Thu Jan 24 18:38:09 EST 2002
  
  One more time for people who confuse Indian notation with WC notation .
  
  As per theory, In a bar (a beat cycle) the upper number denotes how many notes of the "type" represented by the lower number. So 4/4 means 4 quater notes per bar. 1 2 3 4 each of them is a quater note duration. adding all this is a cycle or a bar.
  
  3/4 means 3 quater notes in a bar/cycle.
  1 2 3
  
  thats it.it is a very simple concept.
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ ) on: Thu Jan 24 18:41:44 EST 2002
  
  srikanth: once you mentioned that 5/8 can also be 9/4 ?!?!? how?
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.227.74) on: Thu Jan 24 18:43:42 EST 2002
  
  in 5/8 time it can take 5 8th notes,
  just split those 8th notes by 2
  you get 9 1/4th notes = 9/4.
  
  
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Jan 24 18:45:27 EST 2002
  
  gotcha. romba slow-A irukkumE pATTu.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.227.74) on: Thu Jan 24 18:50:14 EST 2002
  
  arul,Examla theoryla mark podamatanga.....:)
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Jan 24 18:51:51 EST 2002
  
  Srikanth, Athi tala is "tha ka thi mi" repeated 8 times..if I take "tha" as 1/4th bar then Athi is 1/4th bar repeated 32 times..so athi should be 32/4 illaya? I didnt get this..how would you represent athi in WC notation?
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.227.74) on: Thu Jan 24 18:56:21 EST 2002
  
  Vijay, i dont represent it in WC :)
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Jan 24 18:59:57 EST 2002
  
  Sriks, so the answer is it cannot be represented in WC notation?
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 19:05:21 EST 2002
  
  ellaam bongu party pa - azhunguNi aattam aadaraanga vijay :-) u r right :-)
  
  I think in WC, they just reprsent nadais - 3/4 meaning thisram, 4/4, 8/4 meaning chathusram, 5/4, 5/8 (?) meaning kantam, 7/4, 7/8 (?) meaning mishram and 9/4 meaning sankeerNam - there is no thaLam concept as such (the 7 types we have in CM) in WC except the nadais, is what I feel after this exhaustive/exhausting discussion :-)
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Jan 24 19:11:42 EST 2002
  
  IR thats what I suspected..so when they say 4/4 they are just referring to the chatusra nadai..
  
  ithu therinjirundha naan appove nadaiya katti iruppene :-)
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 19:12:38 EST 2002
  
  naanum thaan :-)
  
  but, indha composer saar enna solraar nnu paakkalam :-)
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Jan 24 19:12:51 EST 2002
  
  IR: i think what you say is correct. ellAm bOngu pArty (LOL :-) ). now setting aside the western system, can you please elaborate on what is aksharam (or a unit of time) in carnatic music? time for a thALam thread :-))
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Jan 24 19:16:33 EST 2002
  
  hihi:-) Just to save soem typing iam reproducing the link below that posted earlier
  http://www.lkt.mavt.ethz.ch/~chidu/
  
  very good for all your basic questions
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Jan 24 19:30:27 EST 2002
  
  IR: i think what you say is correct. ellAm bOngu pArty (LOL :-) ). now setting aside the western system, can you please elaborate on what is aksharam (or a unit of time) in carnatic music? time for a thALam thread :-))
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.227.74) on: Thu Jan 24 19:35:46 EST 2002
  
  From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.36.232) on: Mon Jan 21 18:38:52 EST 2002
  
  Adding to the above, People try to convert or map these western beat signatures with carnatic,
  I dont do this, imo, you cannot strictly map them.
  
  --- this was my first posting, i clearly stated my side,
  neegla (vijay and ir, vera yaru..:) potu Kuzapo Kuzaponu Kozapi...finally blame ellam en melaya, yaru bongu party ippo:). The problem is people exposed to indian musicm assume/map some terms themselves in WC. :)
  
  Anyway it was a nice healty discussion.
  Thanks guys.
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 19:53:07 EST 2002
  
  indha composer a oru vazhi paNren irunga :-)
  
  sriks - whatever it is - BOngu still holds good :-) You said :
  
  
  From: Srikanth (@ ) on: Wed Jan 23 23:18:03 EST 2002
  In 3/4 the number "4" has got nothing to do with the cycle. It means there are 3 count of 1/4 notes. Upper number denotes the cycle.
  3/4 is rupakam, which is waltz.
  
  And then you jagaa vaangufied :-) apprum 8/4 is aadhi nnu sonneL when RG said 4/5 is aadhi :-)
  
  then why blame us :-)
  
  you are right - I enjoyed this conversation and am glad we had it - ofcourse we could map CM to WCM - it just took us a while to understand the similarities and now we know all of WCM beats represent nadais in CM :-) isn't that good enouf comparison between CM and WCM??? :-) what is wrong in trying to map to a medium/concept you are familiar with :-)
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 19:53:56 EST 2002
  
  oops uNarchi vasa pattutten - RG said 4/4 :-) illatti adhukku vera indha composer sir thittuvaar :-)
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.203.216) on: Thu Jan 24 19:57:07 EST 2002
  
  enna hihi:-) does your PC automatically post the same every few minutes? ;-)
  
  IR, that was my doubt too, when you can map waltz to rupakam why cannot you map athi to something similar in WC?
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 20:04:39 EST 2002
  
  vijay - andha statement e dubakooru :-) now we know waltz is no where near roopakam :-) waltz is thisra nadai :-) but..... if you look at Chidu's site he says in Jazz, "Swing" means our THisra nadai - so my question is : is swing = waltz = thisra nadai?
  
  I think I know this Chidu guy- he was a student in IOWA and had come to Minneapolis to play for us in a Thyagaraja AAradhanai when we were in Minneapolis :-) I think it is the same guy now in Switzerland...
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Jan 24 20:15:56 EST 2002
  
  vijay: :-)) my pc got stuck but seems to have posted it tho' :-)). another crazy question. does thisra nadai (in a slow tempo) remind you of a majestic elephant walking? :-))
  
  

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