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Did MSV have ANY musical defects?

Topic started by SR Kaushik (@ nova1.cs.wisc.edu) on Wed Sep 30 15:21:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Let me make one thing clear: I am not against MSV, but am merely curious about this topic.

I have made an interesting observation. We have so many criticisms of IR and ARR, but I've not seen any criticism of MSV. I haven't listened to many MSV songs, but I wasn't very impressed by whatever I have heard on TV. Whatever it is, I cannot imagine that he did not have any musical defects. Could anyone point them out? I am very interested. It might test the "objectivity" of certain "objective" people regarding the IR-ARR "war"(I'm not hinting at anyone, please do not misunderstand this), but nevertheless, I want to pursue this.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: RA (@ bay-72.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Sat Feb 12 05:37:44 EST 2000
  
  Hi Folks
  
  I used to be a great MSV fan in my younger days..But whenever I remember his name in the credits, the name "Joseph Krishna" also used to come to my mind but at that time I was not knowing the importance of this unsung musician.
  
  Later when I got into western classical music then only I started finding IR's music with great interest because it was obvious from his music that this composer knows what he is doing...it is apparent that this man knows music... and I also got to understand the contribution of Joseph Krishna to MSV music. Now people who talk about the chord progression or bass scores of MSV, can you please tell me who should take ;the credit MSV or JK?
  
  See, MSV's music was not 100% his own creation. He just gives the melody and the orchestrations/arrangements were done by people like Joseph Krishna, or Hendry Daniel(in earlier days when MSV was working with TKR)...this is the case with most of the music directors in the Indian film industry , that most of them depend on others to do the orchestrations/arrangements/notation writing, etc. Notation writing is also very important as most the musicians in the film industry are more comfortable with western notations...you can make them very clear as to what do you want and the productivity also will be high.
  
  RA
  
  
  
• From: e.hari (@ spider-tn033.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Feb 12 20:12:40 EST 2000
  
  RA,
  A good interesting question? I have always wondered, what is the contribution of arranger in MD's work?. As per the popular belief, in hindi, MDs, specially current ones depend more on their
  arrangers for good music. How did the same system work for tamil MDS is a big question?.
  With out taking any thing away from MSV or KVM, did their assitants just took instructions from their MDS and followed it, or did they contribute their own style, by building it further.
  In case of IR, and what ever we know about his
  working style, his assistants might have very small contribution, and it goes same with ARR. But don't they? I noticed a big difference in IR music when V.S.Narsimman was his assitant in the early 80s, and with Uttam singh and others in the latter part of his 80s. Also for MSV and IR, with the amount of movies they were doing at the same time, it would be easier for them to let the assistants to work on some songs?.
  I would be interested in finding more details from the TFMers, who can shed more light on this.
  
  thanks
  e.hari
  
  
• From: RA (@ bay-71.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Sat Feb 12 23:54:59 EST 2000
  
  Hari
  
  IR is the first complete music director in the Indian film industry...a composer who does every thing...composing,orchestration/arrangements/conducting..and even mixing and balancing of tracks. You are under the wrong notion about Narasimhan. He has been a violinist with IR from his earlier days, period. Of course, because of his knowledge and capability IR got him the first break thru KB.. Other wise all of IR's assistants provide only the backup support and the whole creative contribution is by IR only.
  
  And Uttam Sing was a leading arranger/orchestrator in Bombay...particularly for RamLaxman he was the assistant..and for IR he was only doing the final stereo mixing of the songs for almost 10 years..otherwise he was not involved in the song creation in any way.
  
  Normally the MDs tell the arrangers/orchestrators their idea of the song, the kind of instrumentation they need..etc. etc. and these guys come out the fillers...1st bgm 2nd bgm...etc. and also write the notations and get the orchestra ready with rehearsals. That was what Joseph Krishna/Doss Daniel/Hendry Daniel/GKV were doing for MSV/TKR and Pugazhenthi for KVM. And IR was doing this for GKV as his assistant. For example for T Rajendar L Vaidyanathan used to do the orchestrations/arrangements. Like that there are n number of people-faceless talented guys availbale in the industry.
  
  Of course, this trend of depending on an arranger/orchestrator is prevalent in Hollywood too. If you take John Williams he is like IR, does every thing on his own. But James Horner takes the help of orchestrators to complete his scores. The same if you take John Scott he also does every thing on his own.
  
  "With out taking any thing away from MSV/KVM...." I am sorry I am not able to do that when I know for all the achievements of his creation he is not the sole owner. May be I am like this because I know so much about them and the way they do their work. But the fact remains that his creations or for that matter most of the works of the MDs in our country are not 100% their creation. Evern ARR is in this list...when takes the help of people from Bombay for Rhythm programming and things like that....and of course, when he freely use the stock music available from the libraries or just take some thing from some album from some part of the world.
  
  RA
  
  
  
• From: RA (@ bay-71.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Sat Feb 12 23:55:40 EST 2000
  
  Hari
  
  IR is the first complete music director in the Indian film industry...a composer who does every thing...composing,orchestration/arrangements/conducting..and even mixing and balancing of tracks. You are under the wrong notion about Narasimhan. He has been a violinist with IR from his earlier days, period. Of course, because of his knowledge and capability IR got him the first break thru KB.. Other wise all of IR's assistants provide only the backup support and the whole creative contribution is by IR only.
  
  And Uttam Sing was a leading arranger/orchestrator in Bombay...particularly for RamLaxman he was the assistant..and for IR he was only doing the final stereo mixing of the songs for almost 10 years..otherwise he was not involved in the song creation in any way.
  
  Normally the MDs tell the arrangers/orchestrators their idea of the song, the kind of instrumentation they need..etc. etc. and these guys come out the fillers...1st bgm 2nd bgm...etc. and also write the notations and get the orchestra ready with rehearsals. That was what Joseph Krishna/Doss Daniel/Hendry Daniel/GKV were doing for MSV/TKR and Pugazhenthi for KVM. And IR was doing this for GKV as his assistant. For example for T Rajendar L Vaidyanathan used to do the orchestrations/arrangements. Like that there are n number of people-faceless talented guys availbale in the industry.
  
  Of course, this trend of depending on an arranger/orchestrator is prevalent in Hollywood too. If you take John Williams he is like IR, does every thing on his own. But James Horner takes the help of orchestrators to complete his scores. The same if you take John Scott he also does every thing on his own.
  
  "With out taking any thing away from MSV/KVM...." I am sorry I am not able to do that when I know for all the achievements of his creation he is not the sole owner. May be I am like this because I know so much about them and the way they do their work. But the fact remains that his creations or for that matter most of the works of the MDs in our country are not 100% their creation. Evern ARR is in this list...when takes the help of people from Bombay for Rhythm programming and things like that....and of course, when he freely use the stock music available from the libraries or just take some thing from some album from some part of the world.
  
  RA
  
  
  
• From: RA (@ bay-71.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Sat Feb 12 23:56:30 EST 2000
  
  Hari
  
  IR is the first complete music director in the Indian film industry...a composer who does every thing...composing,orchestration/arrangements/conducting..and even mixing and balancing of tracks. You are under the wrong notion about Narasimhan. He has been a violinist with IR from his earlier days, period. Of course, because of his knowledge and capability IR got him the first break thru KB.. Other wise all of IR's assistants provide only the backup support and the whole creative contribution is by IR only.
  
  And Uttam Sing was a leading arranger/orchestrator in Bombay...particularly for RamLaxman he was the assistant..and for IR he was only doing the final stereo mixing of the songs for almost 10 years..otherwise he was not involved in the song creation in any way.
  
  Normally the MDs tell the arrangers/orchestrators their idea of the song, the kind of instrumentation they need..etc. etc. and these guys come out the fillers...1st bgm 2nd bgm...etc. and also write the notations and get the orchestra ready with rehearsals. That was what Joseph Krishna/Doss Daniel/Hendry Daniel/GKV were doing for MSV/TKR and Pugazhenthi for KVM. And IR was doing this for GKV as his assistant. For example for T Rajendar L Vaidyanathan used to do the orchestrations/arrangements. Like that there are n number of people-faceless talented guys availbale in the industry.
  
  Of course, this trend of depending on an arranger/orchestrator is prevalent in Hollywood too. If you take John Williams he is like IR, does every thing on his own. But James Horner takes the help of orchestrators to complete his scores. The same if you take John Scott he also does every thing on his own.
  
  "With out taking any thing away from MSV/KVM...." I am sorry I am not able to do that when I know for all the achievements of his creation he is not the sole owner. May be I am like this because I know so much about them and the way they do their work. But the fact remains that his creations or for that matter most of the works of the MDs in our country are not 100% their creation. Evern ARR is in this list...when takes the help of people from Bombay for Rhythm programming and things like that....and of course, when he freely use the stock music available from the libraries or just take some thing from some album from some part of the world.
  
  RA
  
  
• From: RA (@ bay-71.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Sat Feb 12 23:59:20 EST 2000
  
  hi Folks
  
  sorry for the repeat posting....some problem with the server...really sorry for the same
  
  ra
  
  
• From: e.hari (@ 98ca12b3.ipt.aol.com) on: Sun Feb 13 00:42:24 EST 2000
  
  RA,
  Thanks for the input.
  Going along your lines, what was joesph krihsna or others contribution. Suppose we take a song, say - yadum uoore yavurum kelir- a song, I like more for the orchestration than the tune. Now what is the contribution for arranger in this song. Could MSV take any credit for the orchestration, or just that, his part was over with just the tune, just curious.
  Now I dont have much doubts about IR's contribution, as we all aware of his working style. But does it not true that there are lot of times, he let his brother ga, or MSV and could be other assistants to work for him, when he was very busy. Also, to me his music in early 80s is very different from his latter day music in terms of orchestration. I also find lot of similiarity in uttam singh's dil to pagal hai interludes to lot of IR's 90's orchestrations.
  Now going back to MSV, who were the assitants, he worked with, and is there is any way to differentiate their music from their arrangements.
  I do find MSv orchestrations in mid 70s to latter, very different from his earlier works. Could be that, he was working with a different assistant that time.
  Regarding ARR, I consider his working style close to pop album producers. I may be wrong, but I like to consider his working style this way. He assembles qualified musicians and he creates the music by using rhythm programmer, and others as you told. Could it be similiar to say a producer for a celine dion or madona albums.
  
  Thanks
  e.hari
  
  

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