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MSV and ARR - THE ONLY LEGENDARY COMPOSERS FOR TFM TO CHERISH!

Topic started by Kumar (@ 202.9.169.42) on Fri May 4 11:04:06 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

The melodies of MSV are longlived and cherished even today as new. They sound fresh.
ARR, though young in age can be considered as a current day counterpart in composing songs intact with melody, well orchestrated to the mood, giving importance to the lyrical content, the same way MSV did then! I think there is a similarity between the two geniuses.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: comment (@ 65.9.136.158) on: Wed May 9 19:57:04 EDT 2001
  
  swamiji,
  once again music sounding good is very very subjective, I cannot stand some of the songs you like, like wise, you cannot stand some the song which I like., mind it same type of basics are involved in compostion. I see more than counter points and phares. Just a single flute melody will be sweeter for many than a big 10 part arrangement.
  Like looking into subject of a song are all theoritical. what is the subject in the song 'radha samadh krishna...' ...nothing but lord krishna..still it is melodies song.
  
  Like language, Music is very personal. we as fans add a little soft corner to our favorite composer thats all. so we tend to fight for them.
  The difference between an oridinary listener and a learned listener is a learned listener knows the difference technically, while a simple ordinary listener trusts his ears and heart.
  
  
  also swamiji...
  .....Music has DEVELOPED that way.
  ..small correction, western music has developed that way.
  
  
• From: comment (@ 65.9.136.158) on: Wed May 9 20:01:19 EDT 2001
  
  what so ever, title for the thread sucks,
  this was started just to show the anger on ir fans..not on the composer.
  we cannot discount an era, which changed tamil music to a great extent.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 64.172.24.51) on: Thu May 10 03:18:33 EDT 2001
  
  Re: Rules and conformance. I think people are having a 'chicken and egg' type of conundrum to understanding. Rules are made by observing behavior or phenomenon (remember curve fitting in high school) . So lets say there is a rule in music viz. xyz ..this was not arbitrarily decided by a committe or person..Rule XYZ exists because if music done this way has been found to be liked by many people. This is not just for WCM it also applies to ICM. As far as I know venkatamaki did not think of the whole carnatic music system all by himself. He probably looked at various rAgams (paNs) existing at that time and formalised the ArOhanam and avArOhnam.
  To me WCM and ICM are no differnt - one tries to achieve musical effect harmoniously and the other (ICM) tries to do this linearly.
  The pattern/structure exists not only in music but also in human languages (Chomsky). I can safely say we understand a lot about music, what is still a puzzle is how music is made !!!
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.1.69) on: Thu May 10 14:13:35 EDT 2001
  
  >>>Music has got to have a grammar, just like a language has got to have one.<<<<
  
  Kiru...
  
  Language is for practical communication of the grosser things in Life..music is a finer form of communication more to do with emotions...grammar is what we put to it according to our culture and traditions....music I think goes beyond all these...
  
  >>It is a good thing to listen to critics also, and not "agree" what the crowd agrees. <<<
  
  Swamiji...
  
  You are right there - but critics with a heart are acceptable and not cold intellectuals :)
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 134.124.159.71) on: Thu May 10 14:46:49 EDT 2001
  
  Just a single flute melody will be sweeter for many than a big 10 part arrangement. comment: do you mean to say that there is no "composition" in a melody? there is structure even in the simple drone of the thampura. every piece of music from an elaborate alapana to a quick thillAnA, though monophonic, has structure. indhiya icai too has developed that way only. instead of things like counterpoints, fugue, ..., we have niravals, swarajathis, ... structure implies grammar. a composer, a musician, a student of music, a critic, a music enthusiast - all these people should know the structure. others can just enjoy the product. it's like an architect, a builder, a contractor, a koththanAr, a chiththAL everyone should know the fundamentals of building a house. the consumers can use those building without understanding why it stands! of course, the consumer can say that this building looks better than that one, but she/he has no right to say that this building is "better" than the other, unless she/he happens to be an expert.
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Thu May 10 15:31:25 EDT 2001
  
  arul EOP....you read the first line and have asked questions, read all my postings, you might get the answer.
  
  In a nutshell, Music being good is very subjective. Swamiji was talking something on composition, counter point, subject of the song..etc, and simply told that’s how music grew up, imho western music might have been that way.
  
  Imho: Indian classical music is different.
  Hindustani was made to please mogul kings -- entertainment, carnatic was made to praise god, later both were used for entertainment and devotion.
  
  niravals -- this is one of the most creative part of carnatic music that cannot be defined, each singer sings in his/her way, but within some ground rules, this cannot be found in wcm, but can be found in jazz.
  
  IMHO, Carnatic music is more creative than wcm. If you pass few grades we can set an arrangement, but to sing a full-fledged keerthanai we need have good imagination. Guru will help you to an extent but still balamurali's entharo will sound different from TNS's entharo. But a bach score played by madras symphony will be the same as played by budapest or london philharmonic, the quality of the output might be different, but the notes are all same, the conductor interprets to an extent that’s all.
  
  Having INDIAN music in mind and If you start following strict rules to set a chord progression, you will end up in creating something mechanical. Indian music has more glides and curves they move based on ragas, if WC rules does not allow you to play C# chord after a “C”, you will struggle to compose a song in gowlai., you will be limited to think further. We have come out it and do it. Y(our) Raja has done plenty of cheesy chord progressions.
  IMHO: Getting into too much theory kills music in long run. Instinct has to play a vital role when composing Indian form of music. I hate to follow strict chord rules, if c major I don’t go to g7th, what if I have ne1….I cannot force myself to place a n2 and compromise on the melody.
  
  Finally,
  Can you please remind me the topic we are discussing? :))
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Thu May 10 15:35:06 EDT 2001
  
  True! aruL is very much right (according to me).
  Comment I don't agree with your "western music has developed that way". The difference in indian music was that it spread through the word of mouth. In western world, things were written. This doesn't mean indian music lacked form. It was present all the time, but we didn't know because most of us haven't heard it spoken of widely.
  Cosmician - as far as I know, critics comment on a work and not the person that created it. This fact should never be mistaken. Moreover Critics have a heart and thats one of the reasons why they are in that profession. They appear cold because "They are Critics".
  Now forget the topic on critics!!
  
  Musicians usually have an idea of various forms and their appeal. They learn them. They give it a name - so that they can be remembered and communicated. For example a "motive" in music can be differentiated among a simple phrase. All they do when they compose music is - Ok here comes the hero (say james bond) and he is on a hunt. So here is the "motive" which everyone knows (and have heard). This way, they communicate to the listener that it is James Bond doing the quest and not someone else. That is why it is called a "motive".
  Once again my point is - even abstract art has a form. Learn it if you are serious about it, and just dont repeat "I play what my heart says". Education has its value, even for a great musician. The reason ARR sounds so good today is because he knows the fundamentals and how to apply them. After learning the fundamentals then apply material to your hearts content. That is creativity. But there are basics (and rules) you have to obey. If you dont, it will no longer be a music with some purpose.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Thu May 10 15:39:46 EDT 2001
  
  Comment - You appear very restricted on your ideas of WCM. "Carnatic music is more creative than wcm" is a rather personal statement. You seem to think an Indian melody becomes mechanical if you start arranging them. My answer to that is NO!! Use your imagination but just dont jump progressions to scare a listener - if you want to do that Learn!!!
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Thu May 10 15:43:36 EDT 2001
  
  swamiji, Yes
  You seem to think an Indian melody becomes mechanical if you start arranging them...--->following strict WCM rules.
  
  i have arranged for about 35 to 40 ragas till date, that what i learnt. still thanks for the tip....I better learn more.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Thu May 10 15:51:09 EDT 2001
  
  Just a few notes on indian music and its respective terms in WCM
  Example:
  
  -------------------T------------------------
  --------HC-- --------C----
  -----P------ -------P------- -------P-----
  Alai payudhey kanna yen manam Alai payudhey
  
  -------CP---------
  unaanandha mohana...
  
  --------HC-- --------FC----
  -----P------ ------P------- ---------C----
  Alai payudhey kanna... Alai payudhey
  
  T = theme
  C = Cadence
  HC = half Cadence
  P = Phrase
  CP = connecting phrase
  
  If you split each phrase into lines or punctuation marks, they will look like a poetry.
  (This is a basic study on Melody from a WCM text-book if you are interested)
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Thu May 10 15:53:05 EDT 2001
  
  Comment dont take that personally. I have done no composing so I better not inform you how.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Thu May 10 15:54:13 EDT 2001
  
  Sorry the text seems to be displaced while indicating cadence and half cadence. But u know what i mean...
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Thu May 10 16:00:33 EDT 2001
  
  swamiji,
  take personally -- who me!, nee enna vena sollu --- :), both of us know where we come from :)
  
  you have posetd some concepts of a score,try to arrange a song following some the basic priciple of chord progression, there are instances where we will be forced to compromise on the melody. song "Sandam" dharmathu adi vangum.
  Sandam is very important, I meant real sandam not the athadi pavada kathada kind of sandams.
  the reason i say for the above song i can the sing the pallavi and saranam with the same words.
  
  do me a help, take a msv song or arr's song and try to split in the above format ?
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Thu May 10 16:06:28 EDT 2001
  
  Swamiji can you clarify...
  cadence,can I call it the ending of a phrase?
  if so as per harmony theory, the cadence became completely dependent on the chord changes
  how do we map this to carnatic music. ?
  
  

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