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MSV and ARR - THE ONLY LEGENDARY COMPOSERS FOR TFM TO CHERISH!

Topic started by Kumar (@ 202.9.169.42) on Fri May 4 11:04:06 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

The melodies of MSV are longlived and cherished even today as new. They sound fresh.
ARR, though young in age can be considered as a current day counterpart in composing songs intact with melody, well orchestrated to the mood, giving importance to the lyrical content, the same way MSV did then! I think there is a similarity between the two geniuses.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: kk (@ 198.4.92.5) on: Wed May 9 10:08:32 EDT 2001
  
  if that guy who started the thread without the word "ONLY" no IR fan will bother this thread.
  
  dss, I know you are the same one who is started this thread, I also see that No one is realy talking about MSV or ARR. Why dont you just start a proper thread without hinting on IR, say some thing with proper content about MSV and ARR?
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed May 9 11:02:15 EDT 2001
  
  cosmician..I think you are confusing the issue. Music has got to have a grammar, just like a language has got to have one. Many things in this world seem to have some pattern/symmetry/grammar. It is just our mind cannot handle anything, that is totally 'chaotic'. I am all for discerning 'music' by the heart. I do listen to music only to relieve the stress to my 'brain' (if at all there is something there :)). Actually, IR himself has talked about breaking the rules in a recent issue of a webzine. I think he has even used donkey's braying (movie: sendhooram) in some song (yeah :)). So dont mistake me for a straigth-jacketed music purist who listens to only so called 'classical' music.
  
  So what I said is at a pretty high level. And also to root the discussion on some basic minimal standards. Otherwise, we cannot have a productive discussion.
  
  Re: youthfulness and passion - These are important ingredients but these alone cannot make good music. I see lots of posters here with these qualities but they've got to add more value to the discussions than just display these :)
  
  (kk, good point - if somebody is a fan of a MD, they should start a thread which tries to elaborate their musical/technical qualities. Even if it is vague, I am sure we have enough musicians around who can pick up on it and continue the thread. For eg. here's a suggestion to ARR fans - New Age Influence in ARRs music or more positively - Introducing TFM to New Age music. If anybody is interested I can come up with quite a number of topics for ARR :) ).
  
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 146.186.113.254) on: Wed May 9 11:09:30 EDT 2001
  
  FYI, scientist, while approaching a problem doesn't have prejudice towards things. What is more scientific is probably being more skeptic.
  
  
• From: R (@ 152.163.213.202) on: Wed May 9 12:05:02 EDT 2001
  
  
  "It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it
  would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of
  wave pressure."
  
  ...this is a quote by a certain Albert einstein..
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed May 9 12:16:21 EDT 2001
  
  Yes, it is the significance one attaches to things that is important. Certain sequence of notes can be 'random' or 'musical'.
  
  
• From: R (@ 152.163.213.202) on: Wed May 9 12:36:20 EDT 2001
  
  kiru, are u suggesting that it is subjective ?
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed May 9 13:23:07 EDT 2001
  
  No..music is common perception among all humans..can you tell a good looking chinese from a bad done yes you, can the chinese will concur too..if somebody likes Mozart wherever they are from they are more likely to like Eine Kliene Nachtmusik..can we agree on what is a simple tune vs an interesting tune (forgetting all the orchestration) yes we can..So there is a common ground on which we can discuss what is good music..
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Wed May 9 15:21:58 EDT 2001
  
  kiru: So there is a common ground on which we can discuss what is good music.. :-))) if it has the name ir attached to it, it becomes bad music by default! anyone who says otherwise is itcing for a fight :-))
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Wed May 9 15:56:19 EDT 2001
  
  Cosmician, you misunderstood me. I meant not to see music scientifically. And the whole argument has changed direction like crazy. Music evolved from the heart! You are 100% True! But music started with a lot of "Rigid" rules which is now slowly being defeated by the contemporary.
  Coming back to the point, I mentioned critics forming a major role in shaping music. It is a good thing to listen to critics also, and not "agree" what the crowd agrees.
  So kindly take this "Science" of the discussion. I never mentioned it, nor did I imply.
  
  
• From: R (@ 172.163.30.168) on: Wed May 9 16:03:43 EDT 2001
  
  Kiru , the common ground imo ,is different at different levels . but the appreciation of something as beautiful as Eine Kliene nachtmusik doesnt come after the analysis about the orchestration etc but straight from the heart . there certainly is some amount of individual taste and subjectivity when it comes to liking different things in music - so all that u can discuss about good music on a common platform is its grammar / pattern/ symmetry and nothing more..! the tune of eine kliene.. without all this is still discussable as is any composition of Tyagaraja - again the levels may be different ..so laying down strict rules of thumb to appreciate and discuss music in so many words and patterns is an exercise in futility ,imho.The common grounds that are explored by the critics are only a part of a synergic system that enjoys music and not some individual arm or leg that stands out on its own. the discussion at a higher level probably gives them the same level of satisfaction a common man derives from listening to Tyagaraja or Beethoven with out knowing the intricacies of the composition .i remember listening to the ode to joy when i was 10 or 11 ,when i knew little about WCM and the basis of my appreciation was at a totally different level than it is now .. when i have tried to understand and learn the finer aspects of the same. but i am overwhelmed by the sheer passion and beauty of the composition the same way i was then ..the only difference being that i am able to to talk more about the harmony and orchetration etc . but the bliss is still the same and that is my own ..so the common grounds can only touch upon a few structural things but the " real thing " is not up for discussion...!
  
  
• From: hari (@ 129.116.226.162) on: Wed May 9 16:23:24 EDT 2001
  
  My 2 cents,
  
  I believe there are 2 kinds of listeners - those that know something about music - theory, science, whatever u call it.... and then the average listener.
  
  For the average listener - watching a cricket match or a movie or listening to a song are all pretty much the same - entertainment value. So many of my friends listen to a CD on their discman while doing their assignments.... For them, it is a source of timepass...There is no urge to find out more about the science / structure behind it...
  
  While I agree that, ones impression of good music is what ones heart feels impulsively, I personally feel the urge to "understand" the music - which is where the mind sets in... Today, it depends totally on my mood whether I am just enjoying the melody,... or looking at the finer points of orchestration.
  
  Having said this, I think most of the stupid arguments in DF stem from this. I believe that the average listener can only say whether - he/she "LIKES" the particular piece of music or not...totally subjective thing... while the discerning listener can go ahead and say why a particular piece of music "IS BETTER" than something else.
  
  Decide for yourself if u can substantiate ur "claims of something being better than something else" .. that is whether u know the science behind what u are saying.... else just say that "I LIKE THIS SONG. Period"
  
  As usual, all IMHO.
  
  
• From: hahahahahahah:) (@ 206.112.114.81) on: Wed May 9 16:24:13 EDT 2001
  
  there is a common ground.....
  if anyone other than IR or his family compose music, it is termed as bad and poor and non scienctific music. .
  
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 146.186.113.254) on: Wed May 9 16:38:18 EDT 2001
  
  *Digression*
  
  "Eine Kliene nachtmusik" is little misspelled , I guess. "Kliene" should be read as "Kleine". German, unlike english, assigns gender to everything. Nacht takes feminine gender whereas, musik remais neutral (don't ask me why?) and hence it goes as "Eine Kleine Nacht Musik" means "a little or small night music".
  
  *digression*
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed May 9 18:32:39 EDT 2001
  
  R, I think we dont analyse everything..Only things which we like..so I am not saying something is good because it follows rules..I think of rules as 'dont reinvent the wheel' approach. Or put it formally certain rules to me are the 'truth's of the universe. Anyways, I mentioned all this because, there are too many arguments in the forum which goes, "I like so-and-so's music so he is great/genius". I thought this was a silly thing to say..Does this mean in music we all cannot agree who is a good creator of music ?
  
  I think I am more with Hari on this.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Wed May 9 19:43:05 EDT 2001
  
  I agree with R. Some people are inclined to analyzing music in a way to make sense of "Why it appeals so much to the heart". When you compose music, there is so much thinking involved - but I am not saying you apply only your mind.
  For example, take any piece of music and just sing the primary tune or theme. Now ask yourself "WHY" is this line a theme whereas others are "developments" of this main melody.
  This is the first step that happens almost unconsciously when u listen. This is what some people say "composing from the heart". I agree to this, but if everything in this world is "From the heart, and nothing but the heart", then there wouldnt be paedagogical text-books on music. The only sentence you will find in those text books are "Why does this melody progress this way? - For the answer to this question, look to page 101". You turn back to page 101 and you will find "Answer: From the heart". (Humor intended, my apologies if taken otherwise).
  Only after you are well versed with some basics, we can make music that appeals to the mass. All composers till today have undergone this basic training. This means that music has a form (if you have any questions on composing and melody writing, please refer any book on "Forms" of music). Anyways, there are some beauties in music which only "Forms" can provide answer to - and the answer is "Why some music sounds and feels so good". You need not attach any rocket-science technique here, but just "Think" thats all.
  
  "so laying down strict rules of thumb to appreciate and discuss music in so many words and patterns is an exercise in futility "
  ---- There are "rules of thumb" that is spoken of, and discussed in the world of music. If this is a futile excercise then you cannot classify music based on period/geography/style etc. Moreover, if this is true then the words "Inversion/arrangement/Counterpoint/Phrase/Cadence/Form/Motion/...etc" are the outcome of this futile excercise. Why! for that matter music score-sheets need not have double bars to indicate the end of one stanza, or you need not have to "tie" notes to indicate a phrase....There is a rule which the brain unconsciously follows, and that is what we decipher through explaing them in words that is familiar to all. If not, then the answer to all your questions will be "From the heart". Just don't underestimate learning music and explain music in words. Music has DEVELOPED that way.
  Peace to all!!! BYE
  
  
• From: Swamji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Wed May 9 19:47:05 EDT 2001
  
  Before I go, the first line should read "I agree with Hari" and not from R. That is very obvious I guess :)
  
  ---I making new MIDIs soon. This time with triton sounds!!
  
  

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