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Music directors !!

Topic started by Indian Music Fan (@ 204.50.249.133) on Sun May 13 19:02:00 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hey guys

I want to know what you think about Laxmikant Pyarelal and R.D. Burman. How do you like their music and their style and how would you compare them to Illyaraja and A.R. Rahman.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.129) on: Mon Jun 11 12:39:20 EDT 2001
  
  LV: You have a knack for quoting people out of context. It was you who talked about Appaji's Harmonium prowess and playing meend on the Harmonium. Why should I question the potential of Sarangi or Sitar or the masters in those instruments. If I am correct, it was you who talked about how Piano is used for HCM and Swamiji, Sugrutha, and I, through many posts conveyed to you that an acoustic reed instrument is NOT capable of COMPLETELY covering every possible nuance of CCM.
  
  Please answer these questions categorically-
  
  1. Does Appaji play everything that is possible in HCM on the Harmonium?
  2. If 1 is Yes, then clearly there are at least some aspects of CCM (the non-playable on Harmonium aspects) which are non-existent in HCM
  3. If the answer to 1 is NO, then your referencing Appaji is a waste of our time.
  
  Everytime I want to give you credit for your awareness, you also come up with something out of context and drag the discussion into unintended paths.
  
  Are you trying to impress us with your knowledge of HCM or of its artists by providing a list of 'big names'. Nobody is a fool here to deny the talents of these artists. But it is just that their talents lie in a different form of classical music. Just like most Indian classical vocalists (HCM or CCM) will find it extremely difficult to sing a three part choral Harmony which say, a Back Street Boys perform with relative ease. It is just what they have been exposed to and trained in, that's all.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Mon Jun 11 13:47:18 EDT 2001
  
  raja is dam right training and practice, I work with carnatic artist who first find it hard to sing harmony parts, but after you explain them with some good practice they kick ass. some of them do much better than than these guys here.
  
  Lv can you tell the world
  1. how much music you know ?
  2. how much of carnatic music you know ?
  3.how much of hindustani you know
  
  I am just curious. :)
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Sugrutha (@ 65.11.240.45) on: Mon Jun 11 13:48:01 EDT 2001
  
  RajaG,
  I see sense in what Sriram Parasuram has said, especially about about gamakams. For example, both Gowri Manohari and HanumanThodi have Saathaarana gaanthaaram. But they differ in usage in these two raagams, very distinctly. Perhaps this is what he says is lost to the Hindustani music today. The criticism is not about the great singers but the music itself.
  
  I am not sufficiently well trained either in Carnatic or Hindusthani, I just go by what I like to hear. I am not a Suppudu, but a mere Rasika.
  
  Personally, I enjoy Sriram, Pramila Gurumurthy, TVG, MSG and Rajam in HCM. The carnatic musicians that are bi-genre also have benefitted while playing CM. It has benefitted their prayogams and the voice (in case of vocalists). I once listened to the Alapanai preceding Pandureethi, by MSG. The purists would have their own opinions, but I thought it sounded terrific. I do enjoy Joshi, Gurtu, Amonkar etc. their voices are incredible and they personally lift the music, which I would normally not enjoy very much, to great heights. Just like Gulam Ali and Asha Bhosle do for me with Ghazals.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Mon Jun 11 18:52:53 EDT 2001
  
  LV, if I want to name my baby I will come ask you. But this time, please name a South Indian name and not any name that ends with "Kar". Thanks!
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.211) on: Mon Jun 11 19:41:02 EDT 2001
  
  Swamiji: How about Bhaskar?:-)
  
  Sugrutha: I found your posts to be quite insightful and very agreeable. I heard TNSeshagopalan sing Hamsadhwani once and, while I have heard many HCM artists (including Pt. Ravishankar) and CCM artists perform it, I felt that his placements were quite different to what I had heard before. I have played enough Harmonium to know that if somebody were to accompany him they will be limited to using C, D, E, G, B and C as an accompaniment. But what he sang (and as you so rightly pointed out as prayogam) was like a limits function - tending towards but NOT exactly equal to. And this was Hamdsadhwani - a very frequently heard and overplayed raagam. I learnt something more about CCM that day. Incidentally, apart from being a concert VeeNaa player, TNS is also a fantastic Harmonium player (I guess simply a great musician says it all) and if HE chooses to not use the Harmonium as an accompaniment - that says it all. You are absolutely right. Harmonium provides a good template for swarasthaanam and a great reference for Sruthi at the beginning stages for the learner.
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 134.124.159.71) on: Mon Jun 11 21:02:33 EDT 2001
  
  digression any vINA player (sugruthA? :-) ) in this df living in southern california (LA or north of it)?
  
  
• From: LV (@ 203.197.81.151) on: Mon Jun 11 22:50:18 EDT 2001
  
  comment,rajaG,swamiji:
  I dont know technically much Carnatci music. About having learnt Hindustani, I NEED not convince u.
  
  However the statement of Hindustani vocalists needing the Carnatic training for 'enrichment of art' is rather absurd, and that was what I was trying to stress upon here, understand! Hence the long list of names ( - for RajaG).
  
  
  Well, yes I am WRONG about the piano. Actually, I had only heard ABOUT the piano being used for HCM - in Surabhi - a prog. on DD I think. Sorry, for not having thought about it carefully enough.
  
  As far as Appa J, yes he literally SINGS the harmonium.
  
  SWAMIJI:
  Since u are more than double my age, u must already be having children. And definitely they must have already been named. :-)
  
  
  
  
• From: Sugrutha (@ 65.11.240.45) on: Mon Jun 11 23:06:19 EDT 2001
  
  aruL,
  
  I live in the east coast. Anyway, I have not played the Veena in 25 years. Just recently my mother lost all hope (of my resuming) and gave my Veena away :-) I am sorry. Good luck in your search !
  
  
• From: LV (@ 203.197.81.86) on: Tue Jun 12 00:19:33 EDT 2001
  
  RajaG:
  Could u please understand that the reason for all this so-called debate that I have supposedly stirred up, is because someone made an absurd statement that CCM is more richer than HCM. Or saying that HCm in itself has limitations as compared to CCm. THATS whats absurd.
  
  Of course, I have been just a student. I dont know the ragas that u quoted. My exposure has been mostly only to the basic ragas and a few others. Yes, I agree with u that in icm different artists perform the same raaga in totally different ways. Kishori Amonkars style of singing Hamsadhwani is very different from that of Rajan and Sajan Mishra.
  
  In any case, even I prefer the Sarangi to the harmonium myself. The sarangi sounds closer to the human voice. But let me tell u - whenever I've heard a Shubha Mudgal or a Kishori or a Veena S conncert, with the accompanying harmonium, I have felt that those accompanyists literally sing the harmonium.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.211) on: Tue Jun 12 10:21:11 EDT 2001
  
  LV: If you have not heard about Hanumathodi (thOdi) or reethigowLai you don't have any business taking part in comparisons and contrasts between CCM and any other form of music. I am extremely disappointed that you chose to waste our time and drag these discussions into other distractions. Do this favor to yourself - Pick up a bunch of cassettes by TNS or Sanjay Subramanian or Sudha Ragunathan rendering some typical karnaadaga raagaas (thOdi, dhanyaasi, varaaLi, bairavi, mukHaari, bairavi, chandrajyOthi). Until then promise yourself and us, that you will NOT say anything about CCM. The list I gave you is NOT to impress you with what I know or to claim that CCM is better than some other form of music. But to NOT be aware of the usage of these raagas (and some similarly typical ones) definitely precludes anybody from talking about CCM.
  
  LV, from all your posts in the forum, I felt that, while I or others may have disagreed with your opinions, you have atleast been adequately exposed in the area about which you were writing. But your claiming ignorance about CCM, yet continuing to get into the word war, is clearly disappointing. I don't see how you are any better than IMF who chooses to compare Rafi with SPB, but cannot come up with 10 pathos or fast songs by SPB. Probably heard Rafi from a 4 album collection by HMV and now thinks he knows everything there is to know about Rafi. Anyway, enough about IMF.
  
  Atleast in future, please don't start/continue a discussion if you are not aware of the basics in the subject. This is just a request. Take it or leave it.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.211) on: Tue Jun 12 10:42:30 EDT 2001
  
  LV: (continuing) You know how you said you were wrong about the use of Piano in Hindustani....Surabi...DD...etc. It is time for you to learn some more FACTS now.
  
  1. Harmonium and Piano are NOT suited for covering the entire gamut of CCM.
  2. Electronic Keyboards with pitchbend ARE suited for playing CCM.
  3. HCM arose mostly as a subset of CCM. However, it represented a more free enterprise (and consequently less rigorous than CCM) and allowed more experimentation. Hence, the creation of mishra raagaas.
  4. A branch of music has nothing to do with the talents of the musicians within that branch. Bhimsen Joshi would have excelled whether he was singing HCM or CCM.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: hari (@ 216.141.67.251) on: Tue Jun 12 11:24:45 EDT 2001
  
  rajaG -
  
  "2. Electronic Keyboards with pitchbend ARE suited for playing CCM. "
  
  Just curious.. is there any artist whos done this to any degree of sophistication?
  
  I am a bit of a keyboardist myself...and from what I know abt pitchbend in electronic keyboards,...suppose u set max pitchbend to 3 or 4 (u cud usually go upto 12 i guess... which is a full octave), the pitchbend covers all frequencies from the "played note" to the "max bend"
  
  eg. if pitchbend is set to 4..u play C and slowly bend the pitchbend wheel all the way down, ull hear the keyboard bend down to B,Bflat,A and Aflat. (all frequencies between C and Aflat are traversed smoothly)
  
  Now, suppose u were attempting to play shankarAbharaNam with C as root, u try some pitchbend stunts,.. ull hear all the wrong frequencies (get what i mean? Bfalt and Aflat are not there in shankarAbharaNam on root C)
  
  I believe the Carnatic gamakms are much more sophisticated, and cannot be accomplished with this normal pitchbend at all. Unless u can tune the pitchbend only to traverse the notes in that raaga or something... Its not clear to me, could somebody throw more light on this?
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Tue Jun 12 11:34:35 EDT 2001
  
  hari, in a violin there are no bridges, but the artists places his/her fingers perfectly on the notes to get the right pitch.
  How ? sheer practice,
  like wise set your pitch bend to 2, you can get the perfect notes u want. just practice and control...it works for me.
  
  

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