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Kannadhaasan Vs. Vairamuthu TFM Symposium Topic 4: Vaarththai Prayoagam

Topic started by Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on Thu Jul 23 21:34:25 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

For a good understanding of how to approach this ongoing symposium, please refer to the thread, "Kannadhaasan Vs. Vairamuthu TFM Symposium Topic 1:Iyarkai Varnanai" before you post. Let me reiterate that this is not a patti mandram, but
a research symposium.
Please show TFM examples of both poets with regards to just theirVaarththai Prayoagam for this thread. By vaarththai prayoagam, we mean captivating use of language, word play, different use of a known word, vocabulary, etc. Please provide the name of the song whose lines you excerpt and the name of the movie if known.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Prakash Balakrishnan (@ gate1.ca.us.ibm.com) on: Tue Aug 4 15:14:13 EDT 1998
  
  Udhaya,
  
  First, Thanks for you response.
  
  As Ravi mentioned.. I didn't blame on "aasai paduduthal"... He also mentioned what I thought.
  Thanks Ravi..
  
  
  About "Precsious Time" & "Varthai Priyogam"...
  KaNNadhasan oru pattu ezhuthum podhu adhil oru varthaiyai mattra sonnargaL. avar udanE, andha vinadiyE 12 mattru vaarthaigaLai koduthar.
  
  Pagalavan... you mentioned...
  "vArthai prayOgam" enbadhu "mozhi vaLam" & "mozhi ALumai" irrespective of methodology(or style or bANi)...
  
  So "vaarthai priyogam" enbadhu "mozhi" sambatha pattathu sarithanE??? appdi irukkum podhu N-alla kadhal padalgaLil "English" edharkku? vaarthai kidaikka villai enbathaalthanE "English" vaarthaikaLai kayaLukirar VM? illai "English"-ai elloridathilum parapukiraara?
  KaNNadhasan, VM-ai mattum alla Vaaliyai, Patukotai Kalayanasundrathai ippadi palarai paaratti irukkirar. adhaiyum aaLavu kolaga eduththukOLLa mudiyadhu.
  
  VM-in vaarthai priyogam...
  mogilinangaL kalaikiradhE mugavarigaL tholaindhanavO???
  
  kaNNadhasanin varthai priyogam...
  vaaLandhu N-elindhu poogum padhai mangai mEga koondhalO
  
  iraNdaiyum parkkum podhu iruvarum orE aLavukku iruppadhu pOl thondrum. aanaal adhu appdi illai.
  
  VM-in pattu...
  
  Telphone maaNi pOl sirpavaL ivaLa?
  melbourne malar pOl milliya magaLa?
  digitalil sethukkiya kurala?
  elizabeth tylor magaaLa?
  Zakir husain thabala ivaLthaaNa?...
  
  kavingar vaarthai priyogathirkkaga eppadi ezhuthi irukkirar parungaL??? idhu oru "Romantic/Poetic" song.
  
  KaNNadhasan, ilandhai pazhathai padukirar..
  elandha pazham pazhuthirundha eduththu eduththu thingaalaam
  ulandhu poona pinnaalE oorra vechchchu thingaLam (Thunnalam for Madras Thamizh).
  
  
  ennai poruthavarai KaNNadhasan, Vairamuthuvai vida varthai priyogathil kaitherthavar.
  
  Sorry, I don't want to make the flames over here.
  
  I accept what you all say.
  
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Tue Aug 4 15:53:31 EDT 1998
  
  Prakash,
  Sandaiyum sachcharavum pulavargalin parambaraich choththu, thalaiva. Thaaraalamaaga thee pizhambugalai kilaralaam, as long as logic rules the discussion, heat is not a bad thing. As I have mentioned in topic 5, you don't have to accept what any one says. As of now, for topic 4, 2 votes for tie and your 1 vote strongly in favor of Kannadhaasan. I would like at least a few more people to give their votes so we can conclude one way or the other. So, Prakash, neengal adakki vaasikka vaendiya avasiyamae illai.
  
  My moderate defense (since I too hate English in Thamizh songs) for English usage by VM is that, he doesn't do it out of context. Telephone Mani is a casual, youthful love song where hipness counts for something, hence the name brand-namedropping. But that it is certainly not the rule in his lyrics and by no stretch (or shrinkage in this case) of the imagination is he limited in vocabulary. Kannadhaasan has written several songs with English in them too. How about "Happy indru mudhal happy", "Oh, little flower see your lover", "What a waiting, what a waiting", "Love is fine darling when you're mine" and the many negligible dance songs he wrote for artists like CID-Sagunthala with peppered English words in them.
  
  
• From: Raman (@ 28.houston-18-19rs.tx.dial-access.att.net) on: Tue Aug 4 16:22:47 EDT 1998
  
  Vairamuthu's Varththai Prayogam is limited with few varthathaigal.
  Such as 'Mazhai', 'Megam', 'Thagam', 'Viyarvai'
  'Mogam', 'Muthu' etc.
  This guy cannot even dream of writing songs like
  'Naalaam Naalaam Thirunaalaam'
  'Poongatrru Puthithanathu'
  'Netruvarai Nee yaaro naan yaro'
  'Naalai intha velai parthu Oodi vaa Nila'
  'theivam thantha veedu'.
  Please stop comparing Vairamuthu with the Greatest Kannadasan.
  Vairamuthu is not even better than R.V.Udhayakumar,Gangai Amaran or even his own wife
  Ponmani Vairamuthu.
  
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Tue Aug 4 16:59:06 EDT 1998
  
  Raman,
  The very reason this whole symposium was begun is to avoid such outright, sweeping generalities and condemnation. I appreciate your passion. But a few of us have begun an objective project and I would much rather see it through than settle for surface judgements. You are definitely welcome to pour your knowledge in this symposium even if only to further your opinion, but please refrain from cutting down an artist whom many of us feel worthy enough to discuss, study, and yes compare.
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ isdbsd1-inet.ci.mil.wi.us) on: Tue Aug 4 17:23:16 EDT 1998
  
  I think people should also consider the generational shift. Ippo Madras-il pOi pArthAl, college students ellaam Thamilish thaan pEsugiraargaL. That's the new generation, and people from older generations are naturally going to feel that their time was better. I found something similar in the "thaththuva paadalgaL" thread, where Kanchana had argued for VM's Take It Easy Policy being a thaththuvam for the modern generation. So if VM caters to the new wave, IMO it only makes him a more flexible poet. Even if this aspect is ignored, his pudhukkavidhai-style flourishes still rate a draw with KD in this category.
  
  I have not contributed to this thread, but have read all posts. However, Udhaya, feel free to disregard my vote if my non-contribution becomes an issue.
  
  
• From: Prakash Balakrishnan (@ gate6.ca.us.ibm.com) on: Tue Aug 4 18:29:35 EDT 1998
  
  Udhaya,
  
  I didn't tell that KaNNadhasan never used English. He used English either based on the scene situation or where ever it is relevent.
  
  Songs like "Telephone Mani pOl", "enakkE enakka.." songs are melodious and very much Romantic/Poetic isn't it??
  either use fully English in a full sentence/line
  summa edhugai mOnaikkaga English use paNNakkUdAthu. Sply. in the very Romantic/poetic songs.
  
  Bharath,
  I also agree to use "Thamish" in the songs like "Urvasi, Urvasi", "Helo Mr.Edhir Katchi.." or "Lucky,lucky...". Even KaNNadhasan used English as Udhaya pointed out.
  I am not only talking about English and also how the way in which he handled the song breaking some theory. As I mentioned earlier about "poo pookum osai".
  
  My point is KaNNadhasan tried to use "Varthai priyogam" in dappankuththu songs, where as VM strugled to use "Varthai priyogam" in very good songs.
  
  Kanchana, Satya Keerthi enga poiteenga??? :):):)
  
  
• From: Prakash Balakrishnan (@ gate7.ca.us.ibm.com) on: Tue Aug 4 18:31:38 EDT 1998
  
  Correction...
  
  the line
  My point is KaNNadhasan tried to use "Varthai priyogam" in dappankuththu songs, where as VM strugled to use "Varthai priyogam" in very good songs,
  
  should be
  
  My point is KaNNadhasan tried to use "Varthai priyogam" in dappankuththu songs also, where as VM strugled to use "Varthai priyogam" in very good songs itself.
  
  
  
• From: Prakash Balakrishnan (@ gate7.ca.us.ibm.com) on: Tue Aug 4 18:31:53 EDT 1998
  
  Correction...
  
  the line
  My point is KaNNadhasan tried to use "Varthai priyogam" in dappankuththu songs, where as VM strugled to use "Varthai priyogam" in very good songs,
  
  It should be
  
  My point is KaNNadhasan tried to use "Varthai priyogam" in dappankuththu songs also, where as VM strugled to use "Varthai priyogam" in very good songs itself.
  
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Tue Aug 4 19:05:34 EDT 1998
  
  Prakash, your point is clearer, thanks. Sathiya Keerthi, indha symposiumae avar ideathaan, is sweating it somewhere in south India right now while Kanchana is swamped with work I hear. So, the judgement is reserved for now.
  
  
• From: kiruba (@ slipper.watcom.on.ca) on: Tue Aug 4 23:39:40 EDT 1998
  
  IMHO, Vairamuthu is a good poet. But when it comes to using the right words I think Kannadhasan wins hands down.
  
  Vairamuthu is known for romance. Whereas Kannadhansan is known for his depth. You cannot have depth if you dont use the right words.
  
  Vairamuthu was popular during my teens. His songs were catchy. Now that I am older I see what Kannadhasan was trying to say :-)
  
  - kiruba
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Wed Aug 5 13:14:27 EDT 1998
  
  This topic seems to split people almost evenly. Myself, Bharat, and Pagalavan make 3 votes for a tie.
  Prakash and Kiruba make 2 votes hands down for Kannadhaasan. I would like to see at least a total of 10 people vote here and state their reasons like we have.
  Ramki, Kanchana, bones, Ravi, Raajaraaman and everybody else who read this thread, please cast your vote. I urge you to state your case why you vote in a certain way and sincerely hope that you would at least be familiar with the songs excerpted in this thread.
  
  
• From: Rajaraman (@ 192.122.135.224) on: Wed Aug 5 21:47:42 EDT 1998
  
  Udhaya,
  My vote is for Kannadhasan.
  
  Prakash has put the reasoning succint:
  
  Kannadhasan could show word play,depth in
  funny,dappaanguthu songs whereas vairamuthu
  has struggled to show depth even in songs for
  very good situations.
  
  
• From: muthax (@ client209-42-213-78.intrex.net) on: Fri Aug 7 14:13:17 EDT 1998
  
  First of all i have a doubt.
  "sabayorgal mannikavum".
  i cud read from the first para of this thread that this is not a pattimandram.
  then why all this voting system.
  
  secondly, i do favour Kannadasan than VM but one cannot blame VM for writing lyrics like telephone manipol siripaval and such stuff.
  when we accept the changes happening in other field of Cine industry like music(issai minnal ARR) cinematography(PCS,SSivan etc), directors(Manirathinam), actors(Prabhudeva, vijay) why not in this. After all he is only catering to audience and proving to be a big success. Definetly tune does matter a lot.
  50kg tajmahal enakae enakka was criticised by someone in one of the junk mails. Whats wrong in writing something like that when nowadays (even when we talk with our parents or friends) we say like "machchaan nethi movie ponenda" movie enna tamil varthayaa? "appa station poi ticket book pannittu varen" station enna tamil vaarthaya?
  in college "Life is so boring da machan"
  "Enga amma movie ku No sollitaanga ya".
  when we talk like this in the day today life, when the situation is around an incident happening in daytoday life, why cant the lyrcisit write something like "fax il vantha penn kavithai enakae enakka?".
  This does *not* mean that i support VM but iam only saying that nothing wrong in it.
  Ofcourse nothing to beat the great kannadasan
  He only can write
  "kodu pottu nikkachonaal seedhai nirkavillaiye
  seedhai angu nindrirundhaal raaman kathai illaye"
  in the song "adi ennadi ulagam ithil ethanai kalagam" in the movie "aval oru thodarkathai".
  
  This might have 'inspired' VM to write the following line
  "Kovalan kaathai thanilaye maadhavi vandhadhundu, maadhavi illai endral kannagi edhu indru" in the song "ellorum sollum paatu solvane unnai paarthu" from the movie "Marupadium".
  
  one other eg for K's vaarthai prayogam
  in the movie "thappu thaalangal" (the same song also)
  "poraladhaarum seidha inmai
  ival porul thaaram aagivitta unmai"
  i really wonder the way he has used one word
  "poralatharam" and split it into two words
  "Porul-thaaram" and still relate them.
  waa kannadasaa unakku nigar neeyae.....
  "neeyae unakku endrum nigar aanavan
  kaanadasa neeye unakku endrum nigar aanavan".
  
  chi! kadaisila naanum pattimandrum levelku erangitten endru koori vaaipalitha
  anbargalukkum, chennai tholaikachi nilayathaarukkum nandri koori vidaperuvathu
  ungal nanban muthax muthax muthax..... :)))
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Fri Aug 7 15:20:22 EDT 1998
  
  muththukkalo muthax,
  Thanks for your awakening statements. You are right that we shouldn't turn this into a Patti Mandram, but we are coming to wildly different conclusions based on the same evidence, something that hasn't happened in this symposium until this topic. So I went the voting route. Some kind of summation needs to be made or else this would be an inconclusive topic. I welcome any other ideas to resolve this.
  
  

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