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Where did Hey Ram and Sirai Chaalai' music fail in relation to the epic Lagaan

Topic started by rf (@ 172.164.126.190) on Sun Oct 21 02:08:51 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Lagaan is a must see, though it did not come from Chennai, it is a must see to understand so many things about what TFM and TFilms in general have missed out in catering to a global audience. An actor who gave us Appoorva Sahotharargal with Ilayaraja Hey Ram was a big mistake and lacking in thinktank. Kamalhasan depended on Hype for that abstract storyline to sell. Sirai Chaalai was too stuffed i believe with elements that it lacked proper perspective and its songs were just ordinary attempts. A period film should have the type of music ARR created for Lagaan. Amazing stuff! (IMHO, Lagaan has become my favorite film in all aspects (screenplay, acting, story, casting and the bgm and songs)while Apoorva Sahotharargal is my second favorite...) I am saying that IR should come out of his mould and look at a world audience in taking up assignments like period films and be open to suggestions/criticisms/information and keep eyes and ears to the ground. IMHO, directors prpoducers are shunning him because audience has changed but IR cares only for Mozart and Bach and not for contemporary ideas. Lagaan is a good lesson for how Marudanayagam's music should be composed. I know HCIRF cannot accept this, it will take time as it took me (SuperFanofIR) to learn.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: NagaS (@ 202.169.129.72) on: Wed Oct 24 06:58:14 EDT 2001
  
  Sridhar,
  
  Kamal did three movies with ARR ? I remember only Indian and Thenali - what is the other one ?
  
  NagaS
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Wed Oct 24 07:21:55 EDT 2001
  
  NagaS
  
  andha innonu thaanga idhu... :-)
  
  this is not vazhaipazha joke.
  
  the film is hindustani(hee...heee a dubbing of indian).
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Wed Oct 24 07:28:26 EDT 2001
  
  Digression
  
  Sridhar,
  The song "Mudhalvane vane vane vane vane vane " is not there in hindi version, i heard.
  
  Interesting point. What i feel is in the "Mudhalvane vane vane vane vane vane " song there will be a high pitched discrete chorus which already exisited in similar way in the film PARDES (MD: Nadeem Shravan, i think). If it had been included then a unncessary criticism would arise in the Hindi Filmdom. So that is why, IMO, ARR avoided that song.
  
  End Digression
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Wed Oct 24 09:57:42 EDT 2001
  
  kupps,
  
  good catch. I should have said "multilingual viability of the MD" and not of the movie. you r correct! I am sorry if that was misleading.
  
  //"1) The songs will be hit during the pre-film audio release.
  2) The film is most likely to be a failure. "//
  
  Roja an essentially tamil intended movie was a success and so was bombay(agreed those r the last 2 successes of ARR in this issue... but IR)
  rajesh,
  
  //"Tell me what publicity Sazaa-e-kaalapani (Hindi name for Siraichalai) Hey Ram got in Hindi. Nothing as compared to Lagaan."//
  
  a lot of publicity sir! quite a lot of publicity. the only difference was lagaan is getting publicity 50 days after it got released whereas those 2 did nor. reason is obvious!
  
  //" Even Lajja which has excellent BGM composed by IR "//
  
  IR was literally used for background stuff. unknown obscure tamilian was asked to all the dirty work and the buffooon AM was used as the public interface figure head. So typical is show biz. IR was just USED. and here lies the tamilian and his fans thinking he has acheived "job satisfaction" and beyond that all others are "superficial". one of the primary reasons why we r still in stone age!
  
  Sridhar (@ 203.199.205.25),
  
  
  //"1. If ARR is said to be a national (sometimes, International!!!) music director, how come he was forced to compose specifically for the Hindi
  remake of Mudalvan?"//
  
  this is a BAD question? shouldnt an (inter)national composer compose for specific lang. films at all!
  
  //" The song "Mudhalvane vane vane vane vane vane " is not there in hindi version, i heard. it is such a simple situation that a tune for that scenario should have been composed with national appeal."//
  
  not it NEED not have been composed with a national appeal. It was intended to have a hindi version when the songs were composed. 1 more BAD question.
  
  //"irresprective of his mother tongue he could have composed a "national tune." "//
  
  WHY?
  
  //"That the hindi tune was different is because ARR's original tune lacked quality? "//
  
  ARR's original tune was not HINDI thats why?
  
  //"2. "Raja Hindustani" composed by ARR"//
  
  NO it was not composed by ARR.
  
  //"Did the exit of Nadheem Shravan from Hindi music a major factor for the ascent of ARR in north India.(ie more because of less competion than because of quality") "//
  
  so did the exit of other "quality" MD's result in the rise of ARR in Tamil scene ? what sort of question is this? ARR does 2 hindi movies a year so do you mean to say the other 198 movies r dud!
  
  //"3. How come no director does more than 2 , max 3 films with ARR ? Ghai did just one. Kamal did three, in between switched over to deva, now has gone to Shankar Mahadevan. (exception:shankar) "//
  
  yes! because they hate him so much for him giving Bad music to their exceptionally well done films!
  I hope that satisfies you.
  
  //"4. Will the song "Narumugaie" of IRUVAR or "Mazai thuli" of Sangamam will have international appeals if dubbed in to other langauges? "//
  
  why should it have appeal. It was not intended to be multi-lingual.
  
  suresh (@ 202.88.155.34)
  
  //"Are you serious! Did anyone really think that a Mohanlal starrer would be a serious contender in the NOrth? "//
  
  yes that was the general idea. that was priyadarshans initial foray into hindi cinema and he did primarily try to woo the hinid audience. he was sure the movie wud do well in south.
  
  //" Did you see the movie? Was there even a hint of pan-Indian appeal"//
  
  yes it had Tabu and a host of hindi actors in supporting cast. It was shot in hindi also I suppose. it did have a pan inidan appeal. The score should have been Hindi compatible.
  
  //"what's ARRs role in Zubeidaa, 1947, Takshak, and Iruvar, each of which was promoted by mega names, in not doing well in ANY LANGUAGE? "//
  
  u just said zubeida and 1947 did well!. Iruvar was just a tamil movie and Thakshak a hiindi-only movie.( a very BAD movie that too)
  
  //"of the minority North audience who would watch it "//
  
  MINORITY north audience. If IR had really thought that then the producers wud have turned to their grave.
  
  //"context of the storyline - rooted so strongly in the South."//
  
  hey and siraichaalai (literally south) was not rooted strongly in the south!
  
  //"I hope you guys didn't expect Bharathi to break into a ghazal or qawwali-tinged "Nirpadhuve" just to satisfy your multi-lingual/ global appeal, or whatever that signifies. "//
  
  No one mentioned such things why drag bharathi into this delibrately ?
  
  
  //"But if pure commercial success is the criteria, "//
  
  if thats not the criteria! then NO work of any kind will go on whatsoever in the world except CHARITY.
  
  //"then IR has to reinvent himself everytime a 'Maine Pyar Kiya', a 'KKHH', a 'DDLJ', "//
  
  CERTAINLY YES if what he is doing now is not working! thats the point right! if you fail re-invent yourself and do it differently!
  
  //" Now that SAR did so well here in 'Vaaname Ellai' and 'Anandham', would you demand ARR to come out with simple, basic tunes in keeping with what the mass market demands? "//
  
  thats what ARR is doing meeting marketing demands!
  
  
  sorry for the long post I was responding to 4 people
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Wed Oct 24 10:00:50 EDT 2001
  
  typo
  
  //" The song "Mudhalvane vane vane vane vane vane " is not there in hindi version, i heard. it is such a simple situation that a tune for that scenario should have been composed with national appeal."//
  
  not it NEED not have been composed with a national appeal. It was NOT intended to have a hindi version when the songs were composed. 1 more BAD question.
  
  
  
• From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.187) on: Wed Oct 24 13:30:00 EDT 2001
  
  Excellent Discussion.
  Bharath is in his top guns. Kudos bharath.
  Guys, this is a nice discussion. Lets analyse the reason. Personally, I feel Hey Ram's BGM is probably one of the best five in India. Lagaan , even though has some excellent BGM (Watch it again....U will realise), I think HR still stands ahead. But, What's lacking in IR now, that was in aboundance in him in 1980s?
  Analyse please.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed Oct 24 13:41:35 EDT 2001
  
  
  I do think music is a universal language, but I would not expect popular music to transcend certain cultural and ethnic differences. IR has a distinct style .very south Indian, strongly rooted in folk/carnatic. This is the reason IMO his music has some 'profoundness' to it. If he changes the style or 'surface structure' of it, he probably will be missing the essential ingredient of his music (the 'soul'). So I do not think his failure to be successful in the north indian popular market is a negative indictment of his musical prowess.
  Just as not everybody likes WCM, people who appreciate the nuances of his melody will seek out and enjoy his albums in any language (like I do for malayalam and telugu).
  I am happy for ARR's success nationally/internationally . I am proud of his technology savviness. But I am much more happier for what IR did to south Indian music. So many popular songs tuned using rAgams/folk music as the base. (Music is just like literature, the more you write in your language, it adds to its strength/viability, the more you compose using traditional structure, better is the durability of our melodies (rAgams). This corpus of work is a good reference for what our traditional scales are capable of. It is a great cultural legacy for the generations to come.
  
  
  
• From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.187) on: Wed Oct 24 13:57:47 EDT 2001
  
  But, Indian public are crazy. ARR has some time mentioned this also.
  See, when a song like "Didi didi" or "maria" by rikky martin become a huge hit here in India, why not a good songs of IR (actually some great songs ) become even a recognised comodity with the NI guys. To term the 50 million people india as musically illitrate will be the height of arrogance. But why?
  I am currently listening to "Ponmaane sangeedham paadiva" song from some rajni film(I think). I am sure this song should be a huge hit all over India. But, its not. Can anybody say that it will be a hit (ie. people all over india will like) if re-released or remixed or used as it is in some other hindi movie?
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Wed Oct 24 14:03:27 EDT 2001
  
  //"even though has some excellent BGM (Watch it again....U will realise"//
  
  well! the first scene where aamir runs behind the brits to save the deer had some good bgm but later I saw ARR many times defaulting to using his songs in BGM. I was trying to emphasize that he was no where close to 1947. did u see nayak... after the bgm of getleman, kadhalan and indian ARR doesnt seem to give shankar that kind of bgm anymore... nayak had no bgm ..it had tamil version of azhagaana rakshaasi and mudhalvan and bgm!
  
  
  //"What's lacking in IR now, that was in aboundance in him in 1980s? "//
  
  my two points since I came here
  
  1) people taste changed, IR was not a genesis of that change and hence he was caught in the middle of whether to change or not. since if he changed to the current style people wud say IR is aping ARR (which wudnt have been true). IR chose to be himself so much that he did not even westernize his music to the extent he did in anjali or agni natshatram.... the normal change that a MD re-invents on himself wasnt done by IR
  
  2) SOme good front-runners are bad chasers. Like our indian cricket team which cannot win matches by chasing targets.. IR also is only a trend setter but a BAD reactor to new trends...
  
  
  

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