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Technical Skills of the MDS

Topic started by Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-126.il.us.ibm.net) on Sat Aug 15 21:37:27 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hi,
In here I wish to compare the technical skills of the MDS - more on ARR and IR What are reasons for ARR being called a technician. Eg: Recording - Raja has used one of the best studio in the country Prasad, which has a clavier recording console (there are only 10-15 of them in the world.) M.Jacksons records uses that. So gadgets wise all the MDS use the same gigs but why ARR's output is crystal clear, Shall we discuss.
(PS: Please do make this into a arr vs IR war)

Srikanth.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: jsri (@ slip-32-101-16-196.il.us.ibm.net) on: Tue Aug 18 22:16:57 EDT 1998
  
  
  Closing Bold!...
  
  
• From: Murali Sankar (@ 129.252.26.121) on: Wed Aug 19 01:00:37 EDT 1998
  
  Yeppa Srikaanthu, Aalai Vidu !!!
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Wed Aug 19 10:42:39 EDT 1998
  
  This is no justification for IR's relatively poor quality of recording as compared to ARR.Yes its a fact that the final product of ARR has a better finish as compared to IR but I humbly want to state that this no great achievement.Why IR has'nt come out with ARR like quality is somthing IR should answer but we should'nt jump into conclusions that IR or his sound engineers can'nt reproduce ARR quality.Its just a matter of taste and preference.
  
  I was listening to steele dan who is a great southern calif composer(mild rock).He was a 70's guy and the quality of recording was much better than ARR's current standard.A muscian's thought process will always be in his music.ARR apart from composing(??) also concentrates heavily on recording and mixing.One cannot hide timing problems with mixing.A discering ear can clearly distinguish any timing problem even if its done with state of art the recording.
  
  Infact ARR's song mastering was done in Canada for thiruda thiruda.It was the first Indian album to have DDD label(Digitaly recorded,digitaly transferred & digitaly mastered).If IR wants he can get his finshed product from US.My guess is cost overruns might hinder this path.
  Technology only improves quality of listening but it cannot hide composition errors.
  
  Anand Mahadevan
  
  
• From: muthax (@ client209-42-213-78.intrex.net) on: Wed Aug 19 15:41:28 EDT 1998
  
  Hi guys,
  
  Srikkanth, u have started a very interesting topic.
  Yes i always used to wonder why ARR's quality is much better than
  IR's. Rather nowadays, i wonder why IR is *not* concentrating much on the
  techie side also. Yes in a way his heavy EGO stops him to produce such
  stuff like what ARR does. At the same time music in Punagai Mannan are
  anyday a good match for ARR's thiruda thiruda and "Darling Darling" song
  from Priya are anyday a good match to Roja. How did he do that?
  Theres also another problem with IR(atleast evident with his socres
  from late 80's), his attitude. he became one typical "aalapaathu
  music podurathu". The orchestration in the song "manitha manitha"
  is indrum bramikka vaika koodiathu.
  Comparing the techinical knowledge in music of IR and ARR is like
  comparing the techinical knowledge of KB and Mani. Somehow the
  much later entrants in both these cases picked up the change in the trend
  in the tech faster than their vetran counterparts.
  As, anand has written that technical stuff does not cover up bad composition
  anyday. Its true anand. both srikanth and udaya are not trying to say against
  that. but when the final product comesout it is the quality of sound
  *for good music* sells. both ARR and IR produce some great music no doubt about it
  (here we are not going into their musical knowledge. if we go then 100% IR is above
  ARR). but what sells is that which is *wrapped up in good quality*.
  Both gavaskar and tendulkar are very good batsmen. what makes tendulkar much better
  over gavaskar is his adaptablity to the current trend of cricket. Which
  gavaskar lagged a lot.
  
  All the above said are IMHO :)))
  
  To Srikanth: can i personally bother/pester you for knowing some fundas, email????
  :-))
  
  Muthax
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-88.il.us.ibm.net) on: Wed Aug 19 19:07:36 EDT 1998
  
  Hey MuthaX (why does it end it a X
  My email
  jsri@prodigy.net
  
  ask anything on music, I am ready to help
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-88.il.us.ibm.net) on: Wed Aug 19 19:08:14 EDT 1998
  
  Hey MuthaX
  (why does you name end with an X)
  My email
  jsri@prodigy.net
  
  ask anything on music, I am ready to help
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Observer (@ spider-tr062.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Aug 19 20:48:39 EDT 1998
  
  srikanth,
  i think i better stop here discussing about ART AND TECHNOLOGY. We will debate more about this and the necessity of an artist to LEARN the technology rather than USING the technology in an omnibus thread. I am anxious to know where Ravi is going to put the boundaries for the omnibus forum. I understand your passions with respect to ARR's technological edge over Raja in these pseudo-technical aspects of music. I too think any artist should get his/her due regard for any of his/her endeavors towards the publicity of the art. But, i think you want to discuss some technical stuff about recording, instruments etc.
  so go ahead!
  
  
• From: raja m (@ spider-ta014.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Aug 19 22:54:39 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth:
  
  What are the other TFM Cds with DDD transfer?
  
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ socks7d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Wed Aug 19 23:28:24 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth:
  This topic brings to mind "The Final Diagnosis" by Arthur Hailey. The central character in the book is an aging pathologist who makes several mistakes, including one causing the death of a newborn child because of his failure to use the latest blood testing techniques. As he leaves the hospital forever he advises the new pathologist, who is about to take over, that he better keep himself abreast of the latest technologies. The reason the elderly pathologist failed in his job was that he tried too hard to do his job. In an under-staffed hospital the elderly pathologist kept sending his juniors to attend conferences while he burdened himself with the task of actual pathology and ended up being behind the times.
  
  Yes, beyond a certain point it becomes imperative that the MDs go in for the latest technology. But as an ardent fan of IR's, till date I have not found reason to complain about IR's recording. In fact, given the choice of listening to ARR on the latest Hi-Fi system and listening to IR on a cheap transistor, there is no doubt in my mind as to which I would choose.
  
  Even in the art of sound-engineering there are several levels. The most important, IMHO, are balancing the voice and the instruments. I find it hard to believe that IR (or any other MD for that matter) could have missed on timing - a simple metronome would do the job, unless of course, you are talking about a third violinist skipping a note, which in any case I would miss altogether thereby in no way reducing the pleasure or my perception of quality. I guess the next important thing would be to balance the instrumentalists between themselves. Then may come smaller issues like the settings used for the delay/echo/flanger units (or whatever latest units they use these days) etc. Where these are concerned, I think you would agree that IR does not fall short. Where ARR actually makes a difference is in presenting sound itself differently. IMO, ARR is actually poorer at balancing the instruments. Like you said in earlier discussions, ARR uses entirely new sounds - sounds that cannot be produced by any natural (native ?) instrument. As an instrumentalist yourself, I think you too would appreciate the sounds of an acoustic guitar over an electric one. Not many people know it, but the scratching sounds produced by a Spanish guitar with nylon strings are so much sweeter compared to the 'perfect' tones produced by an electric guitar. When it comes to a flute, there is no question that the original cannot be reproduced electronically - same with the tabla (you can come quite close though !), sitar, veena, mridangam and violin. Even the throbbing sounds of a acoustic grand piano cannot be accurately rendered on a keyboard - Srikanth, please correct me if technology has caught up :-).
  So, there is bound to be an appreciable difference in recording quality when recording directly through a microphone (however expensive and sensitive it may be) and recording through a jack electronically. These things apart, if we were to argue that even IR uses only the keyboard these days, IR still follows the traditional pattern of scoring music, while ARR uses special effects. For those who may have not noticed, an ordinary drum set consists of 5-7 toms-toms, a kettle drum, high hertz, 1 or 2 cymbals and a foot or base drum. None of the percussion sounds in ARR's songs can be played with an ordinary drum set. Believe me, beyond a certain point we had to resort to using the pad or rythm box for ARRs songs ! Of course that solved the problems of timing, depth and complex beats. But it took away the joy of performance. But that's another matter altogether.
  
  The bottom line is that I wish to define what technological improvement actually is. Is it knowing how to operate those zillions of knobs and buttons on the console, or is it the ability to produce a absolutely seamless recording or is it utilising sounds that sound clearer than musical notes, or is it a combination of all these ? I would say that a combination of all the above would produce mind-blowing recordings, but the least important in my opinion would be the usage of sounds that sound better. If for any reason we had to drop one, IMO we ought to drop the special effects. If the composition is good enough, that ought to keep the listener's interest. On the other hand, I would say that an unwillingness to use these different sounds is definitely a drawback. To put it in simpler words, if ARR could take the soungs of Roja, Pudhiya Mugham, Gentleman and Thiruda Thiruda and work on them, use better, smoother chord progressions, use a bass that 'rhymes' with the rythm section, use a beat section that carries the entire song and finally uses singers who can sing in Tamizh, I would whole-heartedly claim him as the improvised version of IR. Again if IR could rework on some of his songs, get rid of his eunuch-sounding chorus team, use more attractive beats and tighten up the corners of a few songs, ARR wouldn't be where he is today.
  
  Srikanth, my aim here is not to berate ARR, but sincerely point out what I feel are serious flaws in his music inspite of his technical brilliance. I have tried my best to be impartial to both IR and ARR. I don't blame ARR what he is doing. Like you said it is a fast world and to survive ARR has to continually keep producing different music. Even when I call ARR a technician, I mean it as an appreciative quality. But that quality by itself does not make him as good as the maestro. By the same standard, IR's lack of technical knowledge (or unwillingness which may again arise out of a lack of knowledge !) does not make his music poorer in any sense.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-51.il.us.ibm.net) on: Thu Aug 20 08:10:36 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Srinath,
  Nice posting, makes sense to me.
  Musically the counter point scores Raja has done is the best, each bar has a counter point, ARR songs "thongum" meaning hanging there without any intresting movements. But Arr tries many jazz chords which Raja has not experimented as his was forced to stick to this "gramia" base, a village song always ended up in a tabla and a flute,
  But ARr was able to set the porale ponu thayee in a new fashion - folk song need not be a tabla alone. ARR was able to bring out new sounds and beat in that song. We should appriciate that,I do it.
  Secondly Timing - Raja's keyboard player have missed a lead piece, they have placed an improper delay sequence which does not match with the beat,
  hear the song sempoove sempoove - the opening keyboard piece (a mallet kind of sound) that comes after the opening flute (and keyboard flute)prelude, losses his beat at the 4th bar he plays.
  Delay interval set is pretty poor. This might not be identified by an average fan, but if a musician hears he will find it at once...
  This kind of mistakes must be eliminated regardless of being identified or not.
  
  Natural sounds vs Digital samples:
  I will send you some sounds -can you identify which are sampled and which are original sounds.
  I will do it this evening.
  
  IR's lacks technical knowledge and if he does not concetrate on the recording, will force people not to hear his scores. I meant real public, not handful of IR fans here which also includes me. At this time we should know common Public are aware about digital recording fundas..
  Raja has to do something about it, else he has to sit at home, with Social Security payments.
  
  Srikanth
  
  
  
  Regarding Timing
  
  

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