Review Of Old Songs

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Review Of Old Songs Review Of Old Songs

Topic started by SL (@ 208.49.174.119) on Mon Oct 2 18:43:44 EDT 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Let this thread serve as a platform for reviewing old songs that have not been elaborated upon except while discussing the creativity of its creators. Please use this thread to review old songs, album by album.

Responses:

Old responses
From: SL (@ 207.82.165.235) on: Tue Oct 24 18:10:54 EDT 2000

rjay, 'Naam oruvarai oruvar' is predominantly in Vakulabharanam with some foreign notes in the humming at the end of the stanzas. The humming in the prelude in the LRE song is also in Vakulabharanam (replace N3 in MayamalavaGoula with N2, that's all). It's true that the melody line has amazing variations set to a terrific pace.
From: SL (@ 207.82.165.235) on: Tue Oct 24 19:28:16 EDT 2000

rjay, as an aside, the most emotional Sindhu Bhairavi I have heard is 'engE neeyO naanum angE unnOdu..' from nenjirukkum varai with a strong melody base and sitar/clarinet+flute and rest of the paraphernalia.
From: jdd (@ 63.108.172.129) on: Tue Oct 24 20:05:20 EDT 2000

some more songs:
- Naam oruvarai oruvar sandhippoam
- Thulluvadho ilamai
- Aadauldan paadalai kaettu rasippadhileythaan
- Thanni karuthirichu kannu (Ilamai Oonjal..)
- Azhagaana ponnu naan (Alibaba)
From: SL (@ 63.253.7.231) on: Wed Oct 25 00:53:49 EDT 2000

Another one 'ninaiththEn vantaai nooru vayathu'
From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Wed Oct 25 10:01:16 EDT 2000

Instead of Thannee karuthiruchchu, Middle eastern
style is in Kinnathil then vadithu from same movie
From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Wed Oct 25 12:11:15 EDT 2000

sl,
have to noted this: "unakenna mela" shifts to kalyanavasatham in the second part.
From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Wed Oct 25 12:17:15 EDT 2000

sl,
have to noted this: "unakenna mela" shifts to kalyanavasatham in the second part.
From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Wed Oct 25 12:31:21 EDT 2000

fan

that is a good observation. I simply missed it.
It is amazing how the merge is so smooth.
How are the two ragams related (aaraohanam, avarohanam)
From: jdd (@ 63.108.172.129) on: Wed Oct 25 12:39:38 EDT 2000

true about "Kinnathil thaen" (Ilamai ...); thought abt that also but, was trying to remember "Thanni" and so...
From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Wed Oct 25 12:42:33 EDT 2000

Yara yaro nabam endru...these lines are in kalyanavasantham.

sa ga ma tha ne sa..
sa ne tha pa ma ga re sa

(ga=D# ma=F dha=g# ne=b)

i think in the second bgm/saranam,
The trumpet score shifts it to kalayanavasantham, the flute score that is placed over the tune will clearly show the raga.

MSV has done lots of small change overs like these. There are also songs which has a different tune for male track and completly different set of tune of female track.

I request Sl to list those songs.
From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Wed Oct 25 13:29:30 EDT 2000

fan,

thanks for the explanation. does the scale
coincide with Sindhu bhairavi's scale?
From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Wed Oct 25 13:38:46 EDT 2000

Pattathu rani : 3.Intro

The intro has two sections: 1.String/Brass drama
2. LRE Humming, the first being a high energy
section and tells that the song is orchestral, the second balances it with a moody
stylish feel and sets the melodic context strongly. With these two sections you have a
summary of the entire song! Every piece in the song
can be seen as an elobaration of these two feels.

Let us look closely at the String/Brass section
drama. It starts with a eerie high pitches violins
and a 16th note based theme. Then the brass sections play a shocking theme, along with
excellent support from snare drum rolls. Then
the intro ends with strings and brass playing
a call response with a bold holding note from the
brass.

Whip sound. Pain cry.

Eswari sings an elaborate humming, with a beginning
middle and end. See how the beginning melody
is 3 notes widely separated, creating a range
for the mood and towards the end it resolves on
the three notes very close Ga Ri Sa, establishing
the root note of the ragam clearly.
All through there is a vibraphone chord support
one punch each measure, playing a kind of
eduppu for the singer. It is clearly harmonic.

Just before the humming, you can hear the vibraphone playing a scale run, which really establishes the mystery feel.
From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Wed Oct 25 13:40:06 EDT 2000

Rjay, hope this helps,

sindhu bhiravi (under melakartha 10 which is nAtakapriya)
S R2 G2 M1 G2 P D1 N2 S | N2 D1 P M1 G2 R1 S N2 S

Kalyanvasantham (under melakartha 21 which is kIravANi)

S G2 M1 D1 N3 S | S N3 D1 P M1 G2 R2 S
From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Wed Oct 25 13:41:00 EDT 2000

Intro: more observations.

You can hear good use of hihats, to create
a hustling effect. And the humming is also
accompanied by a guitar strum. The same
strum is used in Thulluvadho ilamai and Raja's
En jodi manjakuruvi (same ragam/feel)
From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Wed Oct 25 13:43:23 EDT 2000

fan, that was helpful. I will try to play the
scales and also unakkenna and see if we can learn
the magic!

thanks
rjay
From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Wed Oct 25 13:47:25 EDT 2000

I am also reminded of a hindi song "Hoto pen eisi
bath hai" which is also similar in scale and
also mood to pattaththu Rani. Is it for a similar
song situation? And a Tamil hit similar tune "Kai
thatta thatta".
From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Wed Oct 25 13:50:50 EDT 2000

RJAY, have you tried checking the chord progression for rajavin parvai...

very interesting, point to note is first charanam progression is a little bit different from the second (and the third.)

Let me know I can post the chord progression (if any one is really interested).
From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Wed Oct 25 13:53:32 EDT 2000

4. Pallavi and anupallavi

Pallavi melody has a beginning with a fifth
interval (Sa Pa) and as SL points out
a neat brigha over Raaaani, same brigha also
over Paaarkum. There is a bongo rhythm that sets
the pace. You can hear the hand held maraccas
creating good treble.

Before nillungal, the song comes to a stop.
This device of music indicating meaning of the lyric is very characteristic of MSV's tunes.
We will see more of it later.

The nillungal section has a neat use of accordian
countermelodies. It plays an up/down run across the chord. So there is a neat chord basis for the melody.
From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Wed Oct 25 14:04:01 EDT 2000

Just a simple note about Brigha. It is a Carnatic
term, which I understand, tells you that a
syllable is expanded by singing multiple notes.
In general each syllable gets a note, and with
brigha singing, a single syllable in ornamented
with multiple notes. In this case the Raani brigha
is a "slide down and up" form. Bend?

Another word SL has used it a Sangathi. It is basically a variation. The second time 'vetrikkuthan' is sung, the melodic twist is
different. If you listen to any Carnatic music, you may here the same pallavi line sung 10 times
before going onto the next line. Each time, a small variation is sung. This is called a Sanghathi. It demonstrates how capable the musician is able to place and vary the same melody and bend it differently each time in
the context of the scale. MSV who started out as
a Carnatic singer (learnt singing and playing by
watching a teacher from distance) is adept.
Srikanth once pointed out to me how in 'Ragangal
padinaru' the various sangathi's and brigha's
were well constructed by MSV and rendered beautifully by SPB.

I also have a theory that SPB embellishes many
songs with his own Brigha;s and Sangathis. Raja
from the western school does not use brigha;s and
sangathis that much. That does not mean the song
is flat. I feel it is just another style. Rahman
is back into good sangathi;s and brigha's in his
carnatic style songs.

Thanks to SL for emphasising the brigha and sangathi aspects. I know he falls for them!
Thanks to Srikanth for taking time to explain
these on one of those car rides!
From: jdd (@ 63.108.172.129) on: Wed Oct 25 14:24:53 EDT 2000

on a lighter note,
Rahman uses "Sangathi" in different songs
example:
Ottagathai (Gentleman) and Yeh jaan (Daud)
From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Wed Oct 25 14:30:48 EDT 2000

Good example of sangathee is ...
take the song "nana aanai ital" in the pallavi when it ends -- avar kaneer kadalile vidamater has 2 sangathees.

rjay , good you still you remember ragangal16 discussion. If you remeber we were able to idenditify 6-7 sangathees for the same line in that song.

I had an oppurtunity to meet msv long time ago (during my collage days),
First thing I asked him was what was the ragam for this (ragangal16) song, he gave his usual smile and replied, director wanted a song without a base raga. Yes, we cannot conclude a raga for that song.

Rjay,have you heard the song "gowri manohariyai kanden" in mazalai pattalam, this is wonderful song that defines the raga very well.

as anyone noted this:
"Neeyum nanuma" from gowravam has charukesi as the base raga. Same charukesi is used in azagiaya tamil magal ival. Totally a different mood.
From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Wed Oct 25 14:31:43 EDT 2000

5. First Interlude

This has three sections
A string/brass chord progression based drama (beginning)
Flute and string break (climax)
A relaxed flute solo ending with a half time jazz feel (second theme)

The first section is very dramatic. By repeatedly
striking the same note rara Ree Ree Ree rararira
Ree Ree Ree..., the impact is well created. You
can hear many counterpoints played by trumpets
which are used in high pitch registers and also
bass played by trombone and bigger brass, along with the string section. It is a chord based movement and fan must help us what the movements are. But this also tells us something about MSV's
harmonization. It is primarily a melody oriented
theme to which harmony is fit. In Raja, usually
the harmony is written and then a melody is fit to
it. We can discuss more about this.

This intro has created an expectation but has
gone down in pitch little by little. So a climax
piece with flutes and strings and bongo rolls
plays the same theme four times and gets us to a
climax. See the balance between the first section
which is all over the range vs the second section which repeats the same section a few times.

Then comes the relaxed flute piece which again
suggests the middle eastern feel. Interestingly during the middle section of this, bass guitar
adds in and starts giving a halftime jazz feel,
which forms the basis of "muthukkulikka vaareegala".

Again the principle of balance between the dramatic string piece with the mellow flute piece
reminds us of the same structure in the songs
very intro section.

Interesting thing to notice is that the flute section ends with a fade out into almost silence.
That makes the whip sound dramatically loud. Man,
rich imagination!

That brings us to EFFECTS. What effects, at the
time of MSV? Man, that is what we think! Look at
the effects so far:

1. In the vibraphone run during the intro, you see clear reverb!
2. In the intro Humming of Eswari, you see clear
use of echo.
3. In the flute theme in first interlude we see
clear fadeout.

Man, without electronic and digital controls,
to create this, it would have been ingenious if
not genius!
From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Wed Oct 25 14:42:12 EDT 2000

fan

I have not tried out Rajavin chord prog. We can take up Rajavin chord analysis when we get to Anbae vaa songs analysis (sk is sure to suggest that)

I also like Gowrimanohari of "Pattum Naanae (KVM)
and Raja's "Kanna varuvana". I think KVM's is
carnatic style and the other two have good hindustani rendering. Does Gowri manohari have a
Hindustani counterpart or is it itself H?

jdd,

I did not get the joke.

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