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Has ARR started the downfall of TFM?

Topic started by OfCourseNot (@ 172.149.139.210) on Sat Jan 26 03:41:08 EST 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Since ARR has joined TFM,we have seen a slow decrease in the quality if TFM. ARR introduced digital music which merely required good practical skills in programmimg and sound engineering. Now we see new MD's sprouting up all over the place and these people have very limited musical talent.
Just recently I read that for the movie "Hey Nee Romba Azhaga irruke" 5 new MD's have been signed. I feel that the talent in TFM is just becoming more and more diluted due to ARR's influence. What do you think about this?

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: hari (@ 128.83.175.136) on: Thu Jan 31 17:28:50 EST 2002
  
  Digression
  
  Just wanted to point out YSR's effort - a dance-ish number in 7/8 : kaLLi adi kaLLi from nandha - good effort and a conscious one to do something different.
  
  End digression
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Thu Jan 31 18:00:30 EST 2002
  
  Sam ..that is amazing. Even though I am not that musically savvy I could sense PP is musically much better than many earlier albums of ARR. I have mentioned this in 'New Releease by ARR' thread. I think, since ARR credits people like Ranjit Barot, Sivamani, Keith Peter for the albums we should also acknowledge the contribution of these artistes to the final output. Looks like ARR's approach to giving better quality music is more a 'band' like system. Whatever it is, I think it is the listener's gain and people are showing their approval with the phenomenal sales of his albums.
  
  
  
  
• From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50) on: Thu Jan 31 19:19:15 EST 2002
  
  good to see some good posts by knowledgeable guys like Sam, kiru and some good writers like Naaz, arun_uk.. in this and many other threads. good to see after routine arr-ir bashes and meaningless comparisons.
  getting back to the topic, I feel that IR has his baani too. It can be very easy to spot his songs with defining features like periodicity, his WCM-ity in the composition and other characteristics like rusticity and and a tinge of grandness like the sound of an ensemble a la WCM.
  Athisaya Thirumanam: thanks, sam for your insights. (not demeaning arr) does he even know of such intricacies in the song? This song will probably go down in history as one of the most under-recognized ARR gems.
  
  
• From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50) on: Thu Jan 31 19:19:29 EST 2002
  
  good to see some good posts by knowledgeable guys like Sam, kiru and some good writers like Naaz, arun_uk.. in this and many other threads. good to see after routine arr-ir bashes and meaningless comparisons.
  getting back to the topic, I feel that IR has his baani too. It can be very easy to spot his songs with defining features like periodicity, his WCM-ity in the composition and other characteristics like rusticity and and a tinge of grandness like the sound of an ensemble a la WCM.
  Athisaya Thirumanam: thanks, sam for your insights. (not demeaning arr) does he(arr) even know of such intricacies in the song? This song will probably go down in history as one of the most under-recognized ARR gems.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Thu Jan 31 22:33:21 EST 2002
  
  Re: stamp/signature. I think all good MDs have a signature. And I know everybody will agree ARR is a good MD. Evidently, he has his style. He reinforces this also with good recording/mixing . So it is very easy to spot. He has his own style of melody too. But at times, I have thought 'this does not look like his style' eg. sollAyo sOlai kiLi.
  
  Since I have a weakness for IR's music I have no trouble spotting him. I was able to pick the 3 or 4 songs in a cassette full of kannada songs (which I do not speak/understand). Like sO was saying, you can use the WCM features of the song to spot IR easily. If in the song, pallavi/charanam if you hear a nice counterpoint melody playing for nont-trivial amount of time, it surely is IR. (Deva has never been able to fake this so far, except in prelude and conclusion where it could be bit pieces from WCM masters).
  Other techniques of IR, which can be used to spot him are - bass scores even for melodies (too many examples) , vocal harmony (like in kEladi kanmani in pudhu pudhu arthangal), guitar vibes (un kuthama en kuththamA azhagi)(but this is used by other MDs too) etc.
  
  With ARR, songs have this continous rhythm throughout, uninterrrupted by any percussionless melodic interludes. But this is a standard/orthodox way of doing songs I think. For eg. you can see this in kannE kalaimAnE in moonRAm pirai. Still with ARR, every song will have a unique rhythm arrangement (and at times inspired from some western POP songs :)). This new arrangment for every song guarantees that the song has a 'new' feel. Other techniques of ARR that I have observed are - layering real percussion over the programmed beats, a bass score to accent the beat, almost complete absence of string scores in many songs, stylish singing (which became a std fixture later in his career) etc, use of exotic instruments (most probably from the synthesizer, I think).
  In this context, I have to mention, ARR has a strong focus on 'sounds'. So lets say, he is doing a period film like iruvar, he even adds the 'pop' and 'click' sounds of a record player to give the song an old 'feel'. I was very amazed when I observed this technique.
  
  (BTW, I dont know much about music, I go by easily identifiable features of a song, like the ones I mention above. But I cant tell a C from B).
  
  
• From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Thu Jan 31 23:34:36 EST 2002
  
  This might be a good way to look at ARR/IR - and their respective "adaptations" of the East-West synthesis. (This is only a suggestion, so don't bite me!! :-)
  
  IR: Indianised "Western" traditions through melody (the basis of "Indian" music)
  ARR: Westernised "Indian" traditions through harmony.
  (the basis of "European" music)
  
  This is not just their contribution, this is the essence of their appeal.
  
  (Note: I am using the terms melody and harmony with a technical emphasis, not just the parlance understanding of the words.)
  
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 132.235.18.15) on: Fri Feb 1 00:13:38 EST 2002
  
  Kiru,
  In one of my previous postings, I said if musicians like Naveen, Prassana, Keith Peters (who have better understanding of music than us) play regularly for his compositions, why shud we try to find faults with his music. Their input would certainly be there in his songs. I agree with u about ARR giving credit to his musicians.
  
  sO,
  (May be he also doesnt know them, just kidding) he is the creator of the song, so he is in total control what his creation is like. If we cud find things with our limited knowledge, he certainly does more than us.
  
  Naaz,
  I agree with ur perspectives. Melody is a strong point for Raja (egs, poove sempoove, adi rakkamma etc..), and harmony is one of rahman's strong points (Smaiyai, Kannum kannum, Jiya jale etc..). Its good for us to hear both of them.
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 132.235.18.15) on: Fri Feb 1 01:09:56 EST 2002
  
  s0 and kiru, thanks to u both. I hope people like UV, Sam@213.1.45.2, and others wud join us.
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 62.7.160.84) on: Fri Feb 1 06:43:08 EST 2002
  
  Hi this is the other Sam- the one who was on about Andrew Lloyd Webber and so on. I'd just like to add on the other Sam's point bout PP songs. One song which has gone above a lots of people's heads, is Manmatha Masaam. This is musically an amazingly cleverly piece.someone has already done a detailed review about this, but i'd just like to re-emphasise the point.this song has basic caranatic foundation. ARR has changed thalams thoroughout the piece (between chathusram and thistram). he has manipulated the music to bring in aspects of western music and digital programming. i personally think this piece needs to be admired- just like other PP songs.
  I've heard one Kannathil Muthamittal song (i cant find it anywhere in London) that is, Vallai Pookal, and i tell you, i'm in love with it. anyone that wants to question ARR, please listen to this song and then comment. based on a simple accoustic guitar with gentle strumming, some finger picking, smooth bass, and beautiful singing which is harmonised so often- wow, what a piece.
  thanx guys.
  take care Sam
  
  
• From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.187) on: Fri Feb 1 07:53:39 EST 2002
  
  Lord Shani:
  
  Please keep away from this thread. It's going nicely . Please don't come here. I pray you. Please don't.
  
  
• From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50) on: Fri Feb 1 10:33:46 EST 2002
  
  Sam (@ 132.,
  This question has always been on my mind. No doubt, creators have total control. But, for eg, I've heard that Raaja never chooses a particular raaga for a song or for an emotion in BGM. "Ellam thaanaagavey varudhu-pa", he has mentioned once. So, does their creation come so naturally to these prolific composers (msv/ir/arr) that they never actually bother about the technicalities and leave them to lesser mortals like us? If it sounds good, is it also technically good? In that case, it would lead to terrible underestimation of their genius by common, ignorant masses unless there is someone to explain their brilliant works and make the masses "discover" their genius. Ignorance (and idolatory) is the main reason for TFM-fights. This thread is going good, CF. So, continue the enlightenment to remove our ignorance.
  
  I'm not a music techie. But a couple of observations. In ARR's songs, you can distinctly hear the background chords (that he plays in his keyboard) with what sounds like string instruments that sort of provide the ambience of the whole song. sort of a BGM for his song. IR's keyboard chords can barely be heard. maybe this is due to better recording quality of ARR. but, I feel this is part of their signatures as well.
  
  Naaz, Sam (@ 132.2,
  
  After reading the archives, I thought that melodies belong to MSV(of course), harmony and orchestration belong to IR and rhythm belongs to ARR. Of course, it doesn't mean that they are not-so-prolific in the other departments. Please explain, will you?
  Sam (@ 62.7.1,
  thanks for the info on the other songs. I should listen to Vellai Pookkal. I thought this was just another slow melody from ARR.
  
  
• From: UV (@ 134.113.202.17) on: Fri Feb 1 12:20:01 EST 2002
  
  Sam,Kiru once again nice posting
  And nice to see some meaningful discussions going on.
  Well as said in earlier post and agreed by many
  each MD approach is unique his/her view to harmony,Orchestn is influence by so many factors apart from their own creativity.
  
  And hopefully lets approach it with open minds shedding our fondness to a particular MDs but for music alone.
  
  During 80s IR has some done amazing experiment well beyond so many of his predecssor MDs even dreamt of so in this aspect here are some of the song I am listing where everything a unique
  These songs are Model to follow or atleast worth listening to learn different approaches
  for Orchestrations,Chord progression,interludes,Rthym pattern,Harmony
  Now goes the songs and people should remember the recording quality was not all that good but still you can pick bass notes,horns with little attention :)
  
  1)Ilampani -Aradhani
  2)Vaanengum Thanga -Moondram perai
  3)Pattu Enge - Poovizhi Vasisle
  (cool bass slapping and rthym. drumming by sivamani/purushotam?)
  4)Idho our nila kalam - Tic Tic Tic great carnatic&jazz fusion with cool bass,drumming,
  esp when the male vocal and drumming takes on each other ;) and watch out for phlanger towards end of the song
  
  5)Netru Indha neram - Tic Tic
  (watchout for the excellent drumming,counterpoints and great keyboard punches,overall great orchstn)
  
  I learned about phlanger gagdet used with bass guitar after listening to few of the above songs ;) (Hey its big thing during those time we dont suppose hear those in tamil songs :)
  
  Note: once again i humbly request people not compare or judge people but appreciate nice music
  I will also follow up experiment ARR songs soon
  Happy listening
  PS you can listen to these song at raaga.com
  
  
• From: raycas (@ 212.186.40.21) on: Fri Feb 1 12:38:13 EST 2002
  
  u know, in earlier days, when there was no newtfmpage, no internet, nobody to whom i spoke about arr's music, the whole thing was quite easy...my dad bought arr cassette each time he came back from india, or me too when i was there, then i listened to them...and just liked them...just as simple as that...there was no heated discussion about the actual quality of the songs...if the last one was better than the current one...no statistics, like last three hindi albums of arr didn't do well, or last original tamil album of arr was more than an year ago...or something like that...i just thought it was a fact that i like this man's music...and that it will go on so for ever...
  
  but now, thru all these discussions on various forums, this nice peaceful picture is slowly vanishing somehow...the pressure for an arr album to suceed nowadays is so big, that it's impossible that not even all arr fans will like arr's new albums...(not speaking about all the arr-haters and non-fans of arr)...cause somehow everyone is expecting something else from him...arr has delivered a lot of different stuff in his career, and because of this diversity he got many fans...but then, if he comes up with something totally new, on the one side he takes this risk that his 'old' fans may not like that, and on the other side this way he could get new fans...so the whole thing is becoming complicated day by day...could some IR-observer enlighten me how the situation was at IR's peak time? well, anyway, at that time there was at least not newtfmpage...hehe...
  
  well, so, it's like...now even me started thinking about arr's music...if it is really so good or not and such things...really uncomfortable feelings for an arr-fan...u know...
  well, it's like, i actually still like arr's music...no question...even the much-bashed parthale paravasam (not on this thread though, where i read some praises...) had some really good songs...the strange thing is also, i never ever read in any review that 'moonrezhuthu kettavarthai' was a really cool song, cause i liked that song very much...especially harini's voice ('sushiya' sounded so sweet)...well, that's another thing...anyway, what i was trying to say is, nowadays it's getting difficult to make out arr's so called signature, cause many new mds are using it nowadays...of course unless u are a real music expert like this sashi i think was his name who writes those damn professional reviews on arr's albums...i'm not such a music expert who understands all that complicated arrangements in a song..like that rythm-thing in athisaya thirumanam...for me it sounded fresh and peppy...don't know what to say more...and if, then surely not in english...but in german, but that u people wouldn't understand i guess...
  so actually i liked harris jeyaraj's albums, especially minnale and majnu, also ysr's manadhai thirudivittal and nandhaa and even some songs in pandavar bhoomi...so, in earliar days there was only one arr for me, but now...he is just a part of a whole bunch of good music makers...still on the first place (for me)...but not alone...and that is this new thing to me...somehow a strange feeling u know...
  
  and one word to kannathil muthamittal: 5 songs are so less...and then the signore number is so short...but actually i was expecting something totally new from arr this time, cause when i remember back, alaipayuthey sounded so different the first time i heard it...such a clear sound i hadn't heard before...and so this time i too expected something new...but it wasn't that new...vellai pookal surely had this nice accousic guitar in the background and arr singing...but still, it was a melodious number like arr has done before often...
  so actually sundari song was something really new (to me atleast)...u needed to hear it in good quality, and also with headphones...i like fast singing...and this speed changing the whole time was really cool...
  vidu kodai engal naade...i couldn't appreciate the told-to-be-very-touching lyrics of this song, as i don't understand tamil (but those four starting words i do understand)...so i can only consider the music part of the song... 'pudhakil punnagai...' part, which is repeated often, i liked very much...gives a really 'suffering of the singer' touch to the song...and the rest is also quite nice...
  signore song, though being different in some sense, is so light...too easy kind of...not that i don't like it, but it doesn't sound like the music of a genius (see...this is what i told u people before...this sentence i could only write after discussing in this forum for more than an year now i think, about arr and ir and so on, how much of a genius both of them are. in earlier days i didn't care about arr being a genius or not, i just liked his music, but now, i'm trying to say that thru the signore song, arr's brilliance is not being proved)
  and finally kannathil muthamittal song...i instantly liked the lines 'oru deyvam thantha poove' and kept on singing it the whole time...again and again...eventhough i don't like jayachandran's voice that much, i liked this song...but still, i don't think it is in any way path-breaking...well, perhaps it's too early to say now still...who knows...
  so i hope arr will bang with his next releases...like he banged with lagaan last year as i remember...
  
  raycas
  
  p.s.: hope my contribution to this very well going thread was acceptable. (nowadays u only find time to answer to crap messages in crap threads...)
  
  

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