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IR - SOME SAYS HE'S NOT A GOOD SOUND ENGINEER

Topic started by dvd (@ 161.142.100.85) on Thu Feb 22 22:47:43 EST 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

HI! I am HCF of IR. I am a fan of ARR too.
Comparing both of these great fames, some claims that even though IR is far more superior in terms of music writing, all classical items (Western or Indian), ragas, melody etc., IR lacks in sound engineering aspects.

ARR, in contrast, produces music of superb sound quality (I think no one denies this fact).

My question here is, how good (or bad rather) is IR in terms of sound quality management and engineering (SQME). Would like people with deep techno-acoustic knowlegde to share their precious views in this thread. Which is more crucial, rhytm or sound quality? What happens if both of them meet?

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 146.186.113.254) on: Tue Feb 27 11:11:45 EST 2001
  
  I donno whether it's anything to do with the time period aspect associated with the movie. Bharathi scenes were from early 1900 period. Attempts would have been made to give the same effect in music. Can that be possible that way??
  
  
• From: Analog (@ 209.187.151.146) on: Tue Feb 27 12:44:46 EST 2001
  
  kiru:
  
  Do you think thEvar magan is analog master?
  
  I believe mahAnadhi is the first one recorded in digital by IR. I haven't listend to mahAnathi for longtime, but it was good when it came out first. I am not sure about Devar magan. It sounds analog to me. But new IR albums sound bad if you compare to mahAnadhi, dEvar magan and thalapathi. You can just notice this by concentrating on vocal part itself. Anyway a guy like IR who is really into this level of music, how could he miss this kind of small things? That looks pretty strange to me. I am still searching for answers. :(
  
  
  
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 206.150.228.62) on: Tue Feb 27 16:22:40 EST 2001
  
  Thanks for the informative comments and Shame-on-you for the IR-ARR fights! ;)
  
  It is very clear that IR focuses more as a
  composer than as a 'Producer'. In few cases,
  like Priya, Thendralae ennai thodu, Ananda
  kummi, Geethanjali, Thalapathi etc, his outstanding recordings, by comparison, shows what
  is lacking in his other recordings. I guess,
  he knows what is involved in making meticulos
  recordings and is bored with it. And tried to
  create the awe in scores rather than in production values. Succeeded in many many songs.
  By being the first person to systematically approach bass, counterpoints, I would see him as the first composer-in-the-western-tradition in India. It is our fortune that he applied his learning to integrate indian folk and carnatic and
  other music and made them popular-oriented.
  It is a pity, today he seems to value his lost potential in western music more than his realized potential in music as a whole!
  
  ARR, by comparison, is very excited by sound engineering and production and does not mind even recording traditional
  ideas (prelude to Pachai-kiligal), if he can add his value as a recording musician.
  
  Look at the
  passion with which he has worked on JanaganaMana
  (though I am not very impressed by the results!)
  However, he has proved enough as a composer too.
  And we should also thank him for being the musician who introduced state of the art recording
  values to Tamil and Indian music.
  
  Sometimes it feels like he gets into writer's block. For example, Kappaleri poyachchu - around the 2:30 minutes, he runs out of ideas and gets
  into a 'every body sing in unison' mode and
  does a poor rendering of sare jahan se achcha.
  The song pretty much relies are very few 'A-ha'
  ideas like the drum uruttal and the distant hummer.
  
  
  I heard Mani's Ganesh. The musical ideas were not
  breakthrough ones, but his sound engineering and recording is very very good. And I could not
  digest his lift-off from Yamma Yamma (though
  it might have been forced by producers).
  
  I feel the same way about HJ.
  
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Feb 27 18:03:08 EST 2001
  
  Rjay,
  if I were you instead of saying 'state-of-the-art recording was introduced by ARR', to be precise I would say, 'he introduced a new/contemporary way of music production'. The live mix down to stereo (at the max two stage, one with track singer + one with real singer) was not really a 'scalable' way of music production. This is the reason I think IR wanted to stick to experienced singers. Otherwise imagine how many takes it would need.
  BTW, I think Pravin Mani is into more 'ambient' presentation than the 'in-your-face' presentation of standard POP. HJ I think wants to replicate ARR's sonic signature. So Mani gets credit for his daring. Shankar Mahadevan and YSR are other MDs who use modern production techniques even though everybody seems to be using synths/drum machines.
  
  
• From: comment (@ 63.226.194.130) on: Tue Feb 27 18:09:43 EST 2001
  
  rjay are you talking about mani sharama
  (hope not praveen mani).
  
  Ganesh (telugu dub) was done by mani sharma.
  He is coming to tamil soon. Yes it was due to few producers he was forced to lift, still....it is not correct,
  hear mani's new songs from raaga.com
  (telugu)., along with shanker mahadevan
  he doing pretty well.
  
  (Rjay mani's the sax pieces are too good.)
  
  
• From: Analog (@ 209.187.151.146) on: Tue Feb 27 19:04:40 EST 2001
  
  The live mix down to stereo (at the max two stage, one with track singer + one with real singer) was not really a 'scalable' way of music production. This is the reason I think IR wanted to stick to experienced singers.
  
  I am little bit confused here. Isn't IR too following the track and real singer scenario?
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 206.150.228.62) on: Wed Feb 28 09:50:54 EST 2001
  
  Analog:
  You are right, Kiru is describing the IR's
  way only. Live mix to stereo is IR's way of production.
  The two stage mixing (one with track singer and
  another with real singer) is also his production.
  
  Retaining multiple takes and choosing the best
  ones during final mix and manipulating them sonically after recording are digitally enabled techniques.
  
  rjay
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed Feb 28 10:43:53 EST 2001
  
  A friend of mine has some Hindi songs tuned by IR on LP. He sent me a tape of that. Absolutely fantastic. I think the Bombay guys know their stuff (those Pune Institue grads).
  Anyways, one other job that I would like to have is to be the Producer for IR. I would produce atleast 3 masters - 1) for cassette tape 2) CD 3) for the movie soundtrack. Given a choice I would make another master for those 'Gold CDs' which audiophiles would like to have with a very natural presentation. Maybe even one with real drums instead of a synth drum kit. This last idea is something Sony and others are probably thinking about. One should be able to customise the song before downloading it. This is the only way they can stop piracy.
  
  
• From: Analog (@ 209.187.151.146) on: Wed Feb 28 11:05:36 EST 2001
  
  rjay:
  
  Thanks for your explanation.
  
  Kiru:
  
  one other job that I would like to have is to be the Producer for IR.
  
  :))
  I like to be a sound engineer to IR. Your wish is realistic but mine is not even close :))
  
  
  
• From: Analog (@ 209.187.151.146) on: Wed Feb 28 11:12:02 EST 2001
  
  kiru:
  
  I am listening to songs of "veLLai rOjA" right now. Oh mAnE mAne and sOlaip poovil, they are completely different considering the recording aspect. There is more separation in Oh mAnE mAne and in sOlaip poovil looks like everything goes only to the central channel.
  
  
• From: pg (@ 12.20.190.1) on: Wed Feb 28 11:27:15 EST 2001
  
  Listening to a two-channel mix like sOlaip poovil in Dolby-Prologic mode can be unreliable. This type of problem (everything going to center channel) exists in almost all stereo recordings. If you listen to a actual Pro-Logic recording where there is a dedicated center channel (as opposed to derived from left/right) you won't have this problem.
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Wed Feb 28 12:15:11 EST 2001
  
  kiru: if you ever produce for ir, please consider me for directing the film :-))
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Wed Feb 28 12:52:04 EST 2001
  
  I will do the poojai for the film...
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed Feb 28 13:16:26 EST 2001
  
  I think you guys misunderstood what I meant by 'Producer'. In the Western world, an album has a 'Producer'. The 'Producer' is tasked by the Record company to work with the artist to produce an album. He/She is responsible for translating the artistic conception to a sonic reality. So if the artist says, okay, 'I am gonna use a electric guitar'. It is the producer who decides how the guitar will 'sound'. They wield lot of creative freedom. In the POP world, this is an important requirement considering the bands can be a bunch of inexperienced teenagers :). The Producer is a seasoned industry veteran who knows various genres of music and recording technologies. Basically, a 'Producer' is like a Product Manager, in the software world, who decides the 'look and feel'. It will be a very difficult job to be a Producer for IR :). But I think if you do a good job he will surely trust you from then on. (I am probably not qualified for the job, that is why I just dream about it :). I am better of writing some java code using ThreadLocal or whatever :) :))
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 206.150.228.62) on: Wed Feb 28 13:39:20 EST 2001
  
  Kiru thanks for explaining. I had used the word
  producer from this sense, and hence I had put
  quotes around them. Sorry for not explaining them
  there.
  
  Currently, versatile musician R.Chandrasekaran,
  who plays guitar, harmonica (vasantha kala nadigalilae and nilavu thoongum neram) and keyboards, also helps Raja in digital mixing.
  
  
• From: Analog (@ 209.187.151.146) on: Wed Feb 28 13:50:00 EST 2001
  
  pg:
  
  I agree with you. Sometime back I was listening to George Micheal's Faith in one of my friend's system that has pro-logic mode. I really don't know whether the album has done in Pro-logic mode or not. But there is a song in that album, in it, everything will be on left and right channels. Suddenly the main vocal part comes to the center and goes again back to right and left. It is very innovative.
  
  kiru:
  It is the producer who decides how the guitar will 'sound'.
  
  Is this the case for everyone when they begin their careers in rock/pop world? I can see Backstreet boys, nsync follow this pattern. Since they don't play any instruments, producer or whoever behind the scene will decide everything. B
  
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed Feb 28 14:15:06 EST 2001
  
  Analog,
  That's right. Albums produced by the same Producers for different bands will have something in common. They arrange for the musicians if the band is lacking in personnel (like casting). So the style of playing of this musician will characterise the album. They also do bad things like have Eric Clapton play with a synth drum kit :( (Shame on you Clapton to let them do this to a rock icon like you!!).
  
  rjay,
  Does R Chandrasekaran read email ? BTW, dont give his email to Analog. He is a crazy guy. Will kill to get his job :) He was arrested for desecrating Nyquist's grave :) (Just kidding)
  
  
• From: Analog (@ 209.187.151.146) on: Wed Feb 28 15:04:56 EST 2001
  
  kiru:
  
  Here in western world everything is different. Even if you take sports world, coaches have more control over the players. The approach is totally different. The piece of info in your last posting is interesting and new to me. Eric Claption playing with a synth drum (??), may be he too is under pressure to go with the trend like IR.
  
  I would love to talk to R Chandrasekan if I get a chance, though I know nothing about sound engineering.
  
  rjay:
  I heard a guy called Sethuraman was the sound engineer working for IR sometime back. For how long this Chandrasekaran has been working for IR?
  
  

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