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Shankar-Jaikishan & Illyaraja

Topic started by Indian Music Fan (@ 204.50.249.133) on Fri Jun 1 12:15:20 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

SJ were certainly the most prolific and best MD's of their time. They were responsible for the most number of hits during their reign at the top. I think they can certainly match up to Illyaraja in terms of quality, quantity and versatality. If Jaikishan hadn't passed away in 71, they would have definetly ruled over RDB, LP or any other challenge that would have come their way in the future. They were legends and were very excellent. What do you guys think ??

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: mahabs (@ 203.197.138.163) on: Thu Jul 19 04:50:22 EDT 2001
  
  cf
  
  'pitiable heroes' are (sometimes) likable. what about pitiable villains? or at the best pitiable comedians?
  
  mahabs
  
  
• From: LV (@ 203.197.80.90) on: Thu Jul 19 05:39:30 EDT 2001
  
  swamiji:
  
  Shankar and Jaikishan were geniuses. No doubt about that.
  
  Thanks.
  
  
• From: LV (@ 203.197.80.90) on: Thu Jul 19 05:45:46 EDT 2001
  
  aruLaracan:
  
  U are definitely not sporting enough to call urself an idiot and a muddlehead. And arrogant at the same time.
  So be it!
  
  
• From: swamiji (@ hqprxsrf02.autodesk.com) on: Thu Jul 19 16:27:26 EDT 2001
  
  LV and IMF:
  No way. They provided good music, but in no way they are geniuses (think of 2 geniuses coming together, when they can as well do it individually!). Maybe you think they are geniuses but that fact is certainly not known by many of us. IR's genius is known throughout the world. S and J only "westernized" indian music in that they brought in an orchestral flavor but not an orchestral arrangement in the true sense - it is like western instruments playing and adopting chords to indian tunes. But on the contrary IR "indianized" WCM. There is a lot of difference between the two. Until he came, no one had ever heard contrapuntal arrangement - well that is not his invention, but he was the first person to use it in film music. No one yet writes music scores the way he does - VERY VERY few people in this world are gifted to do something like this. Very few "plans" and "hears" music in his mind like he does. His treatment of Raagams are themselves a study - there are lots of examples to cite.
  Thank you..
  
  
• From: pr (@ a020-0271.snfc.splitrock.net) on: Thu Jul 19 18:36:28 EDT 2001
  
  LV and IMF, you guys no intentions other than starting a flame war based on your 'North-South' complex. There are people here who know what was there is HFM even if they have not heard everything in HFM. So if you consider yourselves as bringers of light, let me remind you, there is enough here already.
  
  
• From: pr (@ a020-0271.snfc.splitrock.net) on: Thu Jul 19 18:39:28 EDT 2001
  
  ...and IMF, I suspected that you were clueless about composers and what they were trying to accomplish, now I actually know.
  
  In the previous posting I meant that there is enough light already:))
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ hqprxsrf02.autodesk.com) on: Thu Jul 19 18:56:37 EDT 2001
  
  Actually you can term LV and IMF as "Hindi - music" evangelists, but I am afraid in a TFM thread it is difficult to achieve what they sincerly wish to. They descend on TFM thread more like missionaries that came to our land to teach us Christianity. What they don't understand is that we natives already know, and have heard music available to us through the radio and TV or is it their assumption that only THEY had the divine chance of listening to them???
  
  
• From: haris (@ inet-netcache1-o.oracle.com) on: Thu Jul 19 19:54:12 EDT 2001
  
  DIGRESSION:
  Swamiji.
  
  can u please explain contrapuntal.. i'm sure u would have explained this in some other thread.. but adiyEnukkAga.. can u give some examples also..
  
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ hqprxsrf02.autodesk.com) on: Thu Jul 19 20:45:45 EDT 2001
  
  Haris,
  Contrapuntal is the adjective of counterpoint. This is a vast subject but I will explain what I know.
  This word is meant to confuse all of us because it has the word "point", which we may think to mean some point in music that take a turn for better or worse! Well, the word point was used because music was represented as "points" on staff (the 5 lines in music sheets). The word counter was used in the true sense - meaning "to act or move in opposition to".
  So counterpoint means, 2 or more melodies that run parallel to each other (meaning sounding at the same time)- but they follow certain harmonic rules.
  For example lets say you sing Sa Ga Pa Sa spaced equally in a 4/4 measure. And another person sings (in a lower voice, although not a necessity) Pa Sa Ga Sa. When you analyze this music "contrapuntally", then you make use of intervals. Interval means distance between 2 notes. So in the above music (in the form, lower-higher(interval)), the intervals are Pa-Sa(4), Sa-Ga(3), Ga-Pa(3), Sa-Sa(8). Rules of counterpoints restrict how each following interval should be, and how they should progress (it is called motion).
  The rules you might think was unneccessary, and music should be free without any restriction. But in olden days, music was written to make singing easier. So the counterpoints or parallel melodies themselves should be "singable" so as to make it comfortable for the singer. So that was how counterpoints came about.
  A nice and small book to read is : Study of Counterpoint (Johann Joseph Fux, Alfred Mann(Translator) - This is the book that was used by greats like Bach and Mozart!!)
  A few IR's songs that come to mind to watch out:
  
  2nd interlude of "poonthalir aada" - Panner pushpangal
  Intro of Vegam Vegam pogum pogum - Anjali - the "ooh ooh" part
  Intro of "oru kiliyin thanimayile" from poo vizhi vasalile
  Kaadhal ovium 2nd Interlude.
  "I met Bach..." in How to name it.
  And many more....
  
  
• From: haris (@ inet-netcache1-o.oracle.com) on: Thu Jul 19 21:03:14 EDT 2001
  
  Thanks a lot swamiji for explaining it.. but i remember swamiji saying the prelude of "oru kiliyin" is fugue style or something like that..
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ hqprxsrf02.autodesk.com) on: Thu Jul 19 22:58:19 EDT 2001
  
  Yes, Fugue is a style - and is rich in counterpoints.
  
  
• From: LV (@ 203.197.80.152) on: Thu Jul 19 23:55:57 EDT 2001
  
  SWAMIJI:
  
  They descend on TFM thread more like missionaries that came to our land to teach us Christianity.
  
  Stop giving this debate a religious angle like this.
  I know how ENLIGHTENED u Hindus are to stop KJY from entering temples (and non-Hindus for that matter), and even the Mangeshkars from entering the Goa temples (because they are NOT elite Brahmins)
  
  
• From: LV (@ 203.197.80.152) on: Fri Jul 20 00:00:22 EDT 2001
  
  Swamiji:
  
  Maybe you think they are geniuses but that fact is certainly not known by many of us.
  
  So if u do not know enough about a certain person's genius, does that mean those people are NOT geniuses.
  
  I think, u need to practice writing something called as a "coherent argument".
  
  
  
  LV and IMF:
  No way. They provided good music, but in no way they are geniuses (think of 2 geniuses coming together, when they can as well do it individually!).
  
  
  What a stupid statement, even more idiotic than that head of urs. So u mean to say Shankar-Ganesh were not geniuses???? And MSV-TKR were not geniuses??? And Nazakat Ali-Salamat Ali are not.
  Of course, they are Muslims so a hard core Hindu fundamentalist that u seem to be will NEVER appreciate their genius. So what about the Bombay sisters, or Rajan Sajan Mishra???
  
  
• From: eden (@ dialpool-210-214-5-230.maa.sify.net) on: Fri Jul 20 05:34:55 EDT 2001
  
  LV, you're a little too quick in calling S-G geniusses and bracket them along with MSV-TKR!
  
  Shankar-Ganesh are obviously very average composers, quite often flicking Hindi tunes / western tunes etc. that are caught by average people. OTOH, the quantum of good, original scores from them are few and far between. Please do not discuss about them along with MSV-TKR which is preposterous, IMHO!
  
  
• From: Balaji (@ webproxy03qfe0.sbi.com) on: Fri Jul 20 08:08:35 EDT 2001
  
  Eden:
  
  Forgive LV. Based on his postings, it is clear he hardly knows anything about Tamil Songs.. Remember him saying the Great SeerGazhi-IR songs!! Pardon him for his ignorance..
  
  Now he must frantically searching for SG songs and come with a list of their bests, to show that he knows about them too!!
  
  Balaji
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Fri Jul 20 12:01:20 EDT 2001
  
  swamiji: so you have read fux's book?! but you are starting a counterpoint with the interval of a fourth? (pa-sa)? :-)) enna, other's make rules, i break them? :-))))
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ hqprxsrf02.autodesk.com) on: Fri Jul 20 13:28:24 EDT 2001
  
  hihi - Sorry missed that point!! Thappu Thappu!! According to the "rules", you can start only with perfect (consonance) interval which 1, 5 or 8. Oh no! I am not anywhere to breaking them!
  Actually some of those rules dont apply to today's music. Its intersting though when I was reading about Debussy and Impressionism (which some of you might have read) - how he broke rules - nice read.
  
  LV and IMF: I have little time to follow every bit of your conversation(arguments) - and I see that you have the knack of connecting two totally unrelating things. Sorry guys, but I have to call this off. Thanks anyway for giving us names of all NI musicians - quite an effort I should say.
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ vengu.umsl.edu) on: Fri Jul 20 13:43:00 EDT 2001
  
  :-)). talking about debussy, i think he is the father of what we now call the newage music. rachmaninoff is another one. btw, you should get hold of arnold shoenberg's book entitled "structural functions of harmony". it's a very dense book (for me :-) ) but you probably will breeze through it.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ hqprxsrf02.autodesk.com) on: Fri Jul 20 15:26:33 EDT 2001
  
  Thanks man!
  
  
• From: MS (@ ch-1317.che.sc.edu) on: Fri Jul 20 15:55:26 EDT 2001
  
  Arul:
  
  Please excuse my ignorance which is as vast as an ocean, but it seems like most of the time you come up with some names (of artists), which have an arrangement of letters hard enough for me to say loud :-) Most names are a wild combo of alphabets, which a kid with absolutely no knowledge about words, may form if given the scramble boeard :-) Just wondering if you have this tendency to go after flashy named-not known to lay - artists and get a feel for their works :-)..when you should be rather be going after flashy ..... :-) I usually get terrified at the sight of such names similar to "armadillo" "peccadillo" and keep myself a bit distanced which is one reason why my cerebral knots are not tight enough :-) (Just kidding..NOM)
  
  
• From: Vidhya (@ 206.216.1.3) on: Fri Jul 20 15:59:59 EDT 2001
  
  MS: LOL :)
  
  

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