Patti Mandram III, "Is Vairamuthu a chauvenist? Yes or No, show evidence from TFM".

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Patti Mandram III, "Is Vairamuthu a chauvenist? Yes or No, show evidence from TFM". Patti Mandram III, "Is Vairamuthu a chauvenist? Yes or No, show evidence from TFM".

Topic started by Udhaya (@ host16.globalcenter.net) on Sat Jun 20 14:02:54 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

This topic is derived from the exciting debate that began in the "Why no female MDs?" thread. Mano and I say yes to the Patti Mandram question while Ramki came out with a No response and gave more examples to back up his claim. The key is to show evidence from TFM as facts for your contention.

Responses:

Old responses
From: Ramki (@ pm062-06.spindler.wmich.edu) on: Mon Jun 22 21:58:12 EDT 1998

(sing to the tune of'mandram vandha thendralukku')

(patti)mandram vandha kavignarukku
paadal ondrum kittavillaiyo??
thalaivarae sabai thalaivarae
paadal solla kathirukken
pottikkagae poothirkken(vm vaasanai varalai:))?
thalaivarae sabai thalaivarae

ammam udhaya indha patti mandrathukku yaar thalaivar??
From: Udhaya (@ host16.globalcenter.net) on: Mon Jun 22 23:59:52 EDT 1998

idhu makkal aatchi
thalaivargal illai
thondargal mathiyil
thundargal etharkku
naan viragu thaedi sendrirukkiraen
viraivil kulirkaayalaam
From: sk (@ bones.deneb.com) on: Tue Jun 23 04:14:36 EDT 1998

Udhaya:

How about the Baasha pAttu "stylu styluthAn"
varum lines:

7 maNikku mEla nAnum inba lakshumi

so 6.45ku avaL ennavAm ??

I wonder how Rajni OKed VM's lyric which
branded woman ONLY for mAlai nErathu mayakka inbam !!!
From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Tue Jun 23 13:53:28 EDT 1998

Thanks sk,
I'll add your example to the "Yes, VM is a chauvenist" argument. This is what I intended the Patti Mandram to be, everybody pitching in for one side or the other, not just Ramki and I in a tug-of-war.
From: Pagalavan (@ bbn-cache-3.cisco.com) on: Tue Jun 23 14:20:09 EDT 1998

Bones/Udaya

VM-i oru "chauvenist" enRu sollvathai vida, oru "opportunist" enRuthAn sollavENdum.. While its true that he writes Ezhu maNikku mEla nAnum inba latchumy he has also penned good lines like adukkaLai thudaippathum, padukkaiyai virippathum athu peNNin thozilillaiyE (Song: O oru thenRal.. Film :PuthumaippeN). avar oru pizhaikkath therintha kavignar..
From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Tue Jun 23 14:47:29 EDT 1998

Pagalavarae
sooriyarae
vaigarai
valarpiraiyae

idhu
undaa
illayaa
idathaa
valathaa
endru pirindhae
pirandha patti
mandram

idhil gyaayathai
paarka virumbum
nadunilaikku
idamillai

aanal
vaadhath
thaandavam
mudintha pin
tharaasai
edaiyittu
endhap puram
ezhunthathu
endhap puram
sarindhadhu
endru
edutthuk koorum
naduvaraaga
ungalai
panivudan
varavaerkiraen
From: Pagalavan (@ bbn-cache-3.cisco.com) on: Tue Jun 23 17:33:25 EDT 1998

Udhaya

konjam uNarchi vasappattuttEn, avvaLavuthAn. athukkAga ennai naduvarAkka vENdAm.. enakku "thEErppugaLaith thiruththi ezhuthath" theriyAthu :-)
From: Mano (@ wheel126.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) on: Wed Jun 24 11:18:49 EDT 1998

I continuing from the place where Uhaya had left it:

' In the song, Poo maalai Oru Paavai'

Muttai Pedum Pettai Kozhiye
Seval Meethu Poratama
Kondai Seval Kothum Velzhilyil
Pettai Kozhi Thangaathamma

In this song, VM is saying that women are not strong as men (by comparing kozhi and seval)

There are arranged marriages so that village girl marries a city man and vice versa. There are plenty of movies based on this theme. Usually, there would be problem in the marriage simply due to the ego of man/woman and we have plenty of the songs regarding that situation. In many of these songs women are accused. For example, in the movie 'Kopurangal Saivadillai', Mohan marries, village girl Suhasini and later he abandoned her in a city. Some how, she manage to enter Mohan house and sing this song:

En purushan than enaku mattum than
Sontham Than Athai Naan Maraven

Similar to this situation, in the movie 'Enga Chinna Rasa' K.Pakiyaraj (village man) happened to marry a city girl. He sing this song regarding his muthal iravu:

Nalla Vaira Kallu Pakathila
Uppai Than Serthu Vacha thintha Saami Than

Between these two songs, the tone is so much different. VM has written in way so that all village women accepts their fate, while the village man not so. Why the difference?

More later

Cheers
Mano
From: Srinath (@ socks9d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Wed Jun 24 13:10:06 EDT 1998

Was VM the lyricist for "Oh Ho Megham Vandado" - Mouna Raagam ? The song is a celebration of women's independence. If it was VM who wrote that song, then I think he vindicates himself :-)
From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Wed Jun 24 13:58:38 EDT 1998

Srinath, I'm pretty sure that all of Mouna Raagam was done by Vaali. IR had parted with VM by that time.
From: Ramki (@ cs507.cs.wmich.edu) on: Wed Jun 24 14:52:49 EDT 1998

Mano sorry to point out but

'poomaalai' was written by Vaali

'en purushan dhan'was written by MGVallaban

'naan thandhanaam than pattu thaalam illai'was wirtten by vaali(he wrote the lyrics for all songs in enga chinna raasa)
From: PG (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Wed Jun 24 15:18:19 EDT 1998

Whatever VM or any lyricist writes for TFM is only for vayitRu pizhaippu - that's all. They don't reflect the lyricists' views.
From: Madhan (@ 202.41.117.11) on: Wed Jun 24 15:59:11 EDT 1998

I don't know whether VM is a chauvinist or not, but he definitely gave us some wonderful lyrics like

"keezhai vaanam yengum theeyin oviyam,
aval kangal bodhai kollum kaalai kaaviyam,
karaiyin meedhu alaikkenna mogam, "

" roja indru meendum tharaiyyil aadalaam.
aval paadham patta mannai yelam podalum,
unnai paarthaal, karai yerum meengal,
un ullangaigal roja theevugal--

vaanengum thanga vin meengal vizhi imai mooda sooriyan vandhu kadal kulithherum neram ,
vaanil oru Deepavali, naam paadalaam Geethanjali"-

AAHAA !! what a description of the horizon,of the young maiden walking on the beach ??!!

But, this same VM writes in DUET in the song "vennilaavil theril yeri " as follows :
"aval sikkaledukkum konndhalukku cheepp(comb)aaga iruppaen,aval sendhaamarai paadhathhil seruppaaga iruppaen , andamellaam nindra podhum, konda kaadhal kolgai maaraadhu" -
EEKS - "I will be your feet's chappal , your hairs's comb" - how INSIPID - bereft of any caressing imagination - we can extend these lyrics as " aval pottirukkum jackettil kokkiyaaga iruppaen , aval use seiyyum makeup il , mascara vaaga iruppaen" - idhu vandhu VMukku 'modern' kavidhai -not Pudhu Kavidhai, 'modern' Kavidhai -yenna kanraaviyo.

Idhaey VM,"Urvashi, Take it easy policy " yendrum azhagaaga oru phrase coin seidhu, Indhiyaavaiyyaey kalakkinaar !!
From: Bharat (@ isdbsd1-inet.ci.mil.wi.us) on: Wed Jun 24 16:10:01 EDT 1998

Warning: Digression ahead!

PG: That is so true.

I feel it is quite impossible to figure out what a poet's personal views are if he writes for films. If VM has expressed regressive ideas about women in his non-film writings, then he could be accused. However, in films, the lyricist writes for a situation. So is it a valid accusation that his film songs make him a chauvinist?

If anything, the film industry is chauvinist. Women's roles today are nothing but glorified sex objects. Remember the heyday of Silk Smitha, Nylex Nalini etc? Now, they are all gone because heroines are baring all themselves. Sonnaalum sollaattaalum ("bones" ezhudiya maadhiri) "7 manikku mele inba latchumi" maadhiri paadalgal thaan ippo popularaa irukku.

Indha maadhiri varigalai endha kavignaavadhu Savithri maadhiri nadigaikku ezhudha ninaipaara?
From: Mano (@ zap.uwaterloo.ca) on: Wed Jun 24 16:23:44 EDT 1998

Oops,
Then all my points are gone. Next time, I'll make sure it.

Cheers
Mano
From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Wed Jun 24 18:19:43 EDT 1998

Bharat, Madhan, pg, Pagalavan,
I agree with all of your views. But this Patti Mandram as all patti mandrams usually do, focuses on a given dilemma with its own parameters and allows for people to debate for and against the given issue. This Patti Mandram doesn't mean that Ramki is going to like a sexist song that VM wrote or that Mano and I don't appreciate the songs that VM wrote praising women. We are debating with examples based on our stance. It is only plain knowledge that an artist can wear many hats but don't we all end up attributing to the artist the true nature that we detect in him/her? That's what's going on here, but don't fear any dispute to come out of this thread, guys, it is all in the fun of exploring different views.
From: Ramki (@ pm062-29.spindler.wmich.edu) on: Wed Jun 24 18:27:52 EDT 1998

Nicely said udhaya. I really find this pattimandram very interesting bcoz for the first time in my life im defending Vairamuthu:))
From: Ramki (@ pm062-29.spindler.wmich.edu) on: Wed Jun 24 18:35:32 EDT 1998

viragu thedi chendravargal
theeyudan varuvargal endru parthaal
vandhadhu verum siru theeporikkalae

idhai anaikka engal vairamaanavarin
kavidhai mazhaigalil oru thuli podhum
vellam edharkku??
From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Wed Jun 24 19:01:18 EDT 1998

en gnyabaga koattaiyin
oattaigalil
vairamum muthum
prakaasippathu
oru perumaiyaa

aayutham indri
poarida naan
moodanalla
poraattathai
nirutha naan
koazhaiyum alla
iruvar mattum
poarida idhu
kudumbach chandai
alla

thani maram
thoappaanathu
ungal uthaaranam
oru soru patham
paarthathu
en uthaaranam

inthap patti
mandram
palar vanthu
suvai saerkum
kavik kundram
endru ninaithaen

vambu chandaiyaal
paazhaana mandapam
enbathu pirar
kootroa

viraivil
vairathin ullae ulla
vakravam theriyum
muthirku moolathil
pithu endru puriyum
From: Mano (@ wheel114.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) on: Wed Jun 24 22:40:28 EDT 1998

Well said, Udhaya.

Cheers
Mano
From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Thu Jun 25 14:14:27 EDT 1998

penpaal endraal
kaamathup paalukku
appaal paarkkath theriyaadha
chinnavar namadhu
orae vithai kattra
irattaikkal kavingyar

In the following example one can see what
VM seeks from women:
pasi thoondum amutham
thara vendum kamalam
...
irukkum varaikkum enai thinasari anusari

What VM is saying could easily become a RAP song
Girl, you keep me hungry
gotta give it up now
...
keep on feedin'
as long as
you got it
as long as
I'm needin'

The next song makes it plain that only an adolescent mind
would get such a thrill out of a sensual experience, moreover,
to brag about one's getting lucky reeks of locker room
story telling by famous womanizing athletes and shows exactly
the kind of hypocrite that VM is when it comes to
cultural values of women being upheld while revelling in cheap thrills. And yes it
does make him a chauvenist for he doesn't show respect for a woman's
intimacy:

kaamanae naanam kondaal
solliyathu theeraathu
kambanae vandhak kooda
kattupadiyaakaathu

kandathil indru naan solvathu
paathiyae (how respectful of you)
kaaviya naayagi kannagi
jaathiyae (yeah, right)

andru oru naal
andha mayilaal
aadai nanainthaal
kaayum varaiyil
thogai udalil
ennai anindhaal

naanamae selai aanadhum
boadhai aanathum
enendru solla (did you have to even say it to begin with?)

dhaavani poovinai
soadhanai seikiraen (this is not cricket commentary, buddy)
ethanai machangal
keladhai cholgiraen (idhu enakku romba mukkiyamaana statistic paaru)

paavai malaril
koadi malarin
vaasam arivaen (aenya ippadi moappam pidikkirae)
aadai ariyum
sedhi muzhuthum
naanum arivaen (karmam karmam)

meethiyai naan
uraippathum
nee rasippathum
panbaadu illai

(yoav, kannadichu pallizhichu kandethellam sollittu
ippa poi nee solrathum naanga kaetkirathum panbaadu
illaina ennayaa artham?
unnai panbaadulla pennin
kaalaniyaalae adikkanum
...aana adhu panbaadu illai,
adhanaala pizhaichae nee)

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