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IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: vikram chander (@ 202.9.163.117) on: Fri Oct 13 02:13:10 EDT 2000
  
  Well said Eden,It is just idiotic to compare a cheat with a genius like IR.
  I don't think Raja has deteriorated so much.Still
  at the age of near 60 he is giving good music.
  It is true that some people say his music is
  outdated but Raja is not a person who would just
  copy others' music just for making an album hit
  like many composers of today's time do.
  This comparision is the worst critisism that can be made on a peerless composer like Raja.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Fri Oct 13 08:37:48 EDT 2000
  
  Eden & Vikram,
  
  I'm really sorry for that comparision.It's just that I don't want IR to degenerate anymore.
  
  I expect IR to take everything in his stride and come out with his guns blazing.
  
  Wouldn't it be great if IR gives ARR a run for his money?
  
  Though I'm a ARR fan ,I'm asking you all IR fans,is that too much to ask?
  
  Thanks,
  Trend
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ 216.217.47.130) on: Fri Oct 13 10:04:07 EDT 2000
  
  Eden,
  Are you creating a IR "rasigar mandram" here or what?. You know for sure what the truth is and you are not able to accept it just because of you are a hardcore IR fan.
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Fri Oct 13 11:28:26 EDT 2000
  
  dorai and trend,
  
  subjective matters cannot be and should not be discussed. do you want to do an analysis of ir's songs in the late 90s? mid-90s? early 90s? let's do it and you will prove yourselves to be wrong. i don't have to and am not going to list out the gems of his later years; it's out there and if you don't like them, it's your problem. i find his music becoming more mature as time progresses; i prefer his latest compositions to older, brash ones! maybe i am getting old, but that's another point.
  
  
• From: Radhai (@ 209.247.139.39) on: Fri Oct 13 12:41:31 EDT 2000
  
  Guys,
  When I listened to 'Barathy' songs, I felt no other current music director could have done better. But, I felt something was missing. The punch that ought to be there when we render Barathiar songs was definitely missing.. Listen to 'Kappalottiya Thamizhan' songs and 'Barathy' songs and you will know what I mean...
  I am an ardent fan of IR, but this is what I genuinely felt.
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ 216.217.47.130) on: Fri Oct 13 13:59:30 EDT 2000
  
  Radhai,
  You are absolutely right and thats the reason I have said that Bharthy is an average album not meeting to the expectations of IR standards. IR in 80's if he were to compose these songs would have come up with legendary compositions.
  
  I still rate the Bharthiar songs you have mentioned to be much better than the ones from "Bharathy" movie. I can add more songs to this list like "Sindhu Nadiyin Messai..." from kaikodhutha Deivam, "Kaatru Velliedai Kannama..." and "Manadhil Uridhi Vendum..." from Sindhu Bhairavi.
  
  
• From: Observer (@ 208.154.130.13) on: Fri Oct 13 14:08:19 EDT 2000
  
  Dorai:
  
  If you like the songs of the 70's and 80's so much, how come you like ARR songs? Is it because he has established a pop culture in India and also recycles MSV's songs in his works?
  
  Come on... Bharathi is wonderful to listen to and songs like "Vandhe Mataram" and "Agni kunjondru kanden" ignites the dormant patriotism in the listener. I don't know if until date ARR has achieved that even in his very muched album "Vande Mataram".
  
  
• From: Observer (@ 208.154.130.13) on: Fri Oct 13 14:09:09 EDT 2000
  
  correction:
  
  I don't know if until date ARR has achieved that even in his very much hyped album "Vande Mataram".
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ 216.217.47.130) on: Fri Oct 13 14:29:32 EDT 2000
  
  Observer,
  Why not. Vande Mataram is an excellent song much much better than "Bharathy" songs. There is no hype about it. I get more patriotic feelings listening to ARR's Vandemataram especially the Tamil Version than any of the "Bharathy" (the movie) songs. This does not conflict nor contradict the fact that I am a hardcore fan of IR. If fact, I would rate "Vandemataram" as one of ARR's few most emotional numbers that he produced so far. He does not produce so many emotional songs, I would rate this as probably ARR's best with respect to original and emotional composition
  
  
• From: Observer (@ 208.154.130.13) on: Fri Oct 13 14:54:21 EDT 2000
  
  Dorai:
  
  IMO, when it comes to emotions, feelings, expressions in songs I can say comfortably that no one can beat IR. Have you heard songs from "Desiya Geedham"?. It is an album from the 90s. The songs in that movie are passion-driven and when a layman listens to those songs, the patriotism in his mind is ignited. I did listen to ARR's Vande Mataram and was not half impressed as that much when listening to Desiya Geedham. That is the reason why I was referring to "Vandhe Mataram" as "much hyped". Almost all knew about ARR's VM because of marketing, hype etc. But, only a few HCIRFs could get a chance to listen to songs like "Annal Gandhi kandadhenna unmai kanavaa" from Desiya Geedham. The album is a class of its own. Bharathi is another gem of an album where Bharati's very mind is expressed in each and every song and tunes. Hats off to Raja!
  
  So, to say that Raaja is not doing well as in 80s or not giving good music as before is an understatement. If you keep in touch with Maestro's music, I can assure you that you will never be denied of quality music.
  
  
• From: sunder (@ 202.144.64.4) on: Fri Oct 13 15:00:43 EDT 2000
  
  Both IR and ARR never took any care to retain the nativity of tamil soil .Earlier days MSV ,KVM etc,etc took care to preserve nativity of TAMILIANS. That"s why they selected and retained voices like p.suseela, TMS,Vani jayaram,L.R.Eswari
  etc,etc. But IR brought in once rejected S.Janaki,
  Jensi,Sujatha etc who brought in Malayalam type songs to tamil screen.ARR is continuing the same tradition by bringing in all type of ALIEN singers to Tamil screen.
  Imagine Ashs Bonsle singing " Unnai ondru ketpene,
  Unmai solla vendum'. .....muscat sunder.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Fri Oct 13 16:00:44 EDT 2000
  
  Re: vandE mAtaram. I think rAjA has done another version too. Also, we have to look at the song as a different interpretation. This version is more like medium pace than fast bowling.
  There are lots of innovations in many songs - kElada - the tune correctly captures the tone of the lyrics..the female singer joining for relevant lines is a nice touch.
  edhilum iruppAn song - has a different kind of orchestration for a classical type of song. However subtle this maybe.
  nalladhOr veenai song - is very ambient.
  bhAratha samudhAyam - Yesudass sounds a little tired but still very nice.
  See..one cannot repeat the arrangements in sindhu bhairavi..so we will have to look at this as new work..as an experiment..which is always the case with rAjA.
  
  
  
• From: Radhai (@ 209.247.143.121) on: Fri Oct 13 17:16:02 EDT 2000
  
  Kiru,
  You are right. This is a new experiment. What I personally feel is IR's music for Bharathiar songs in movies like 'Manathil Urudhi vendum..', Meendum Kokila are better. I personally felt given the talent that IR posesses, he could have done better in Barathi.
  
  I reiterate, no one else could have done a better job.
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ 216.217.47.130) on: Fri Oct 13 17:47:56 EDT 2000
  
  Radhai,
  I totally agree with your points.
  
  BTW : What song in Meendum Kokila are your refering to??
  
  
• From: amalraj (@ 203.199.224.34) on: Sat Oct 14 10:53:56 EDT 2000
  
  its getting really bad,i don't know whether to feel sad about some of them who didn't know what IR music is about. all i can say is they didnt attain their piravi payan. i think all the IR fans should take a decision;not responding to such comments when we hear "vaarthai thavari vittai" or "nallathor veenai" our emotions roll down simultaneaously nobody needs to tell us whether
  these are good or bad we know we are true to ourselves nobody can understand our total submission to his music when some of his songs are ordinary we know that the situation is not challenging .so every IR fan must not indulge themselves in responding to such comments.
  
  
• From: eldred (@ 203.199.224.34) on: Sat Oct 14 10:56:47 EDT 2000
  
  latest addition to ARR copy list
  "kandukondan kandukondan" from KK is a direct copy of "chellakannan alzhaikiran"(don't know which film it is from.
  
  

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