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IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: eden (@ 61.1.250.209) on: Thu Oct 12 01:08:55 EDT 2000
  
  IR is a great composer, but after ARR came into TFM he has lost his vision/passion/enthusiasm that he had in the late 70's and 80's to come up with extraordinary compositions
  
  Dorai & Trend! making sweeping statements like the above are totally uncalled for...if you guys are satisfied in calling Guru(M),KM,Time, portions of HR or Bharathy as `kadugu' `average' etc. please live in your own world & don't expect objective people to accept it...IR's marketability has for sure come down and may be to some extent his prolificity but definitely not his creativity.
  
  For that matter, even simple compositions like `OlakkudisayilE' (Thirunelveli) or `chinnanjiRu kiLiyE' (KN) have the so called `80's trade mark' of Raja and makes its impression on people like me (who have grown up listening to Raja right from 77, apart from some good works of MSV!). Yes, more than most of the compositions of other players today!
  
  Do you remember a fellow called T Rajendar whose songs used to be played everywhere during the peak of Raja (oru thalai ragam, U usha, rayil payanagalil, thangaikkor geetham etc.) out of which the popularity of some songs even overshadowed those of Raja's...did it mean that IR lost his passion etc then? Today's condition is much the same (ok, a little worse:-))) as the few numbers that ARR can manage in the whole year are heard everywhere...It's a good diversion but I don't care...
  
  What's more important is Raja's enthu is still there, like in putting a lot of effort and creating a classic in `ninnai charaN adaindhEn' with different tune for each of three stanzas and a different and magical interpretation of `nalladhOr veeNai seidhu' which raises goose pimples unlike any version before (including the average VNS number of MSV that you are referring)...Compare the mediocre Bharathy number dished out in KKKK and you'll be able to separate classic from commodity!
  
  
• From: KITKAT (@ 202.188.42.28) on: Thu Oct 12 02:21:37 EDT 2000
  
  ! i have many more to come and if you want we can chat seperately one day..
  
  CHAT SEPARATELY, Krishana thank you soooooooooo much of sparing us. If this poring was from your heart then I thing the heart is located at the wrong place. Good Bye, C U.
  
  
• From: Arvind (@ 203.126.228.21) on: Thu Oct 12 02:32:36 EDT 2000
  
  ARR is great and marvellous in composing songs. We want him to entertain the whole world people not only for tamil or hindi.
  
  
• From: Prasad (@ 134.244.223.30) on: Thu Oct 12 03:15:49 EDT 2000
  
  Arvind, Remember his music for most of direct Telugu movies were always flop.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 61.1.250.215) on: Thu Oct 12 05:06:44 EDT 2000
  
  Me again, Dorai!
  I think your experience of Bharathi is a question of mismatch between `expected parameters v/s actuals':-) Even I thought first, esp. after reading a couple of reviews on Net, that it's another `Sindhu Bhairavi', i.e. full of carnatic stuff but found a totally differnt menu when I got the cassette. It's rather a mixed variety, a predominantly folk album, with controlled doses of WC / IC ! It's beautiful nevertheless, considering that the emotions are very apt to the poems, which is most important! Moreover, folkish music is closest to Raja's heart and he probably wanted to pay that kind of tribute to the great poet. Once I started viewing the whole album from this angle, I felt it's a great effort. Why? It's common knowledge that Bharathy wrote most poems with carnatic base (some of them have even the ragam & thalam listed by him). My mother's music teacher at school, who was close to Bharathy, used to imitate the poet in the classes according to my mom...my mom even used to mimic the `Bharatha samudhayam vazhgave' in `adikkattai':-)) Now, to express them flawlessly with folkish / filmy tunes & probably in different scales (like nirpadhuvE, agnikkunju, kEladA mAnidanE) calls for real musical genius which IMHO IR has comfortably coped up with! That a contribution by KSC or UK (poor equivalent to KJY of 1985) like in SB is lacking is a fact, but it's probably a political decision by producer / director to encourage youngsters who have definitely performed above my expectations.
  
  We used to sing my mom's teacher's semi-classical version of `vellAi niRathadhoRu poonai' with some `aaaaaAh'(is it swarams or AlAps?) at home, which IMO feels better on ears, but Raja's work (i.e. Raj Kumar Bharathy's version) is definitely more creative:-))
  
  Some DFers used to ask the question, what's the last IR album with `ALL' good songs...I can stand up and tell `BHARATHY'!
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Thu Oct 12 11:22:23 EDT 2000
  
  Eden,
  
  What I meant was IR's music for last 10 to 20 films barring Bharathy is no upto the mark.Even in Time 2 or 3 songs are good what about the others?
  
  "IR's marketability has for sure come down and may be to some extent his prolificity but definitely not his creativity."
  
  Someone's creativity can be realized only if they are prolific.How can you substantiate the fact IR is still creative but not prolific?We all agree IR was creative in composing Bharathy which yielded prolific results.Give me some instances of when IR was creative but not prolific.
  
  What is the point if somebody has complex ideas but if it doesn't have practical significance?
  Please don't glorify his average or below average works of IR.
  
  Everyone thought Ramar Pillai had great ideas but what is the use?
  He has become a joke!!!As an IR admirer I dont want this to happen to IR.There is a possibility if you glorify whatever he gives.
  
  At any time I would think MSV's "nallathor veenai" is much better.SPB provided a excellent support to MSV.
  
  ARR's "suttum vizhi" is just a poetry.I thought that piece jelled well with the movie too(don't consider Abbas factor:-) )
  
  Abt your last posting,I think it is purely a unique experience which most of the others cannot identify with.
  
  "Some DFers used to ask the question, what's the last IR album with `ALL' good songs...I can stand up and tell `BHARATHY'!"
  
  As an IR admirer,I don't want this to be his last
  album with 'ALL' good songs.
  
  Kitkat,
  I was reading through what Krishna has written and I was thinking abt a response but yours was very apt.
  
  Thanks,
  Trend
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ 216.217.47.130) on: Thu Oct 12 11:26:23 EDT 2000
  
  Eden,
  You totally missed my points. The issue I raised was whether IR came out with an Extraordinary score on Bharathy or not. The fact is he did not.
  I have questioned his loss of passion/enthusiam that he use to show in 80's for composing any song for that matter is TOTALLY MISSING now. He is obsessed with giving "Mediocre" scores in the name of "Creative, Pure..." music and the hardcore fans of IR here in this forum have developed a biased approach to exaggerate his work. As a Hardcore IR fan myself, I am willing to accept the fact that IR has certainly faded away for various reasons, some of them under his control and some not.
  
  The fact though is that his "Genius of 80's" is missing now. The last album which was very creative, original and exceptional from IR was "Thevar Magan". From then on, he his in his own world composing without worrying about the fans. In fact, "Thevar Magan" came around the same time ARR's Roja and maybe composed even before ARR's Roja was released. Tell me why he is not able to produce another album of the class of "Devar Magan". The lack of good directors cannot be used as an excuse for that. The reason being, IR himself has said that he never got great inputs for composing songs even from Bharathi Raja and all the creativity of the songs is totally from him (he was refering to the "Manjollai Killi Thano..."). The fact is IR got Psyched up by the entry of ARR and was not sure which way to go (either his own style or the new pop-style). That is one of the reason for the detoriation of his compositions where you see IR mixing both and ending no where. The lack of motivation to achieve more and different has faded away and he started taking an indifferent approach towards cine music. This has happened to MSV on the entry of IR and now its IR's turn with the entry of ARR.
  
  
  
• From: eden (@ 61.1.250.173) on: Fri Oct 13 00:53:57 EDT 2000
  
  Trend & Dorai!
  `Beauty is in the eye of the beholder'...I now understand how true it is...discussing about subjective , sweeping opinions (IR got psyched up by ARR, MSV got psyched up by IR & such) will lead us nowhere...tell me any of the late 80's album of IR that is better than Guru(M)...I have enough statistical data to prove that there had been a few mediocre IR scores in 80's as well...even in your revered `dEvar magan' scores, `sAndhuppottu' never appealed to me while I loved the later works like `konjikkonji' & `malaikkOvil vAsalil' much better. Same with MSV, whose `engEyum eppOdhum' or `adhO vArAndi vArAndi villEndhi oruththan' will rate much much better than any of his 70's scores, IMO...I always thought he charged up to his earlier 60's vigor with the advent of IR & came out of his slumber during the 70's...
  
  Trend, by `prolific', I meant the `productivity' or the `quantitative' part. (to cite an e.g. Sunny would have been more prolific in his first tour to Windies, but I still love his 29th hundred against Marshall & co, which IMHO, is more of a genius & extending his creativity-unlike some of his previous scores against mediocre bowling)...One can't do the same `amount' of things in late 50's as he had been doing in youthful 30's buddy, while he can still be immensely creative & artistic:-))
  
  
• From: eden (@ 61.1.250.173) on: Fri Oct 13 01:00:07 EDT 2000
  
  Trend!
  You call yourselves IR admirer but then make a really cruel comparison with a fraud character who has never proved himself (R Pillai)...I can't classify this as anything but malicious intentions! Cheh! Absolute discrace...for a person who enriched the lifes of Tamizhs & others for 2 decades:-((
  
  

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