Topic started by Udhaya (@ 209.36.218.162) on Wed May 17 16:39:19 EDT 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
As a respite from constant bickering, I would like to try something more positive in identifying songs with similar sandhams. In rock'n roll concerts there's a tradition of breaking into medleys to cover a bunch of seemingly unrelated tunes by bridging them with unique music. Even SPB did this in his concert to cover several hits of his early years.
The object is to fit charanams of a different song to suit the pallavi of a given song. Unlike paattukku paattu, this is harder and doesn't allow for the chain to keep going. But we can all come up with like- minded songs whose charanams could suit each other. I think this will be easier for the musicians in the forum, but for those of us who aren't can train our ears better by doing this. Let's see how this plays out.
Responses:
- Old responses
- From: haris (@ inet-fw2-o.oracle.com)
on: Thu May 18 19:38:03 EDT 2000
rajaG/Vijay,
rajaG is talking about the (tha ki ta tha ka thimi tha ki ta tha ka thimi)- the konnakkOl funda or whatever it is... NOT about the atharmam song..
sounds funny..
- From: VIJAY (@ 129.252.22.221)
on: Thu May 18 19:42:12 EDT 2000
haris,
u are as confused as rajaG; sorry if i confused u guys. i was NOT referring to the thakita thathimi song from salangai oli. i have not mentioned the film name as well. I was just writing down the beat cycle ..misra chaapu goes like
THA KI THA THAKA THIMI...
- From: haris (@ inet-fw2-o.oracle.com)
on: Thu May 18 20:06:59 EDT 2000
vijay,
YES. i'm very much aware of this. the vocal rendering of the beat is called konnakOl.. even i meant exactly what u just said.
- From: VS (@ wwwgate2.motorola.com)
on: Thu May 18 20:40:45 EDT 2000
Some more examples :
Chinnan chiru kiLiyE chithira poovizhiyE (Mundhanai mudichu) with charanam of Uyire uyirin oLiyE (En bommukkutti ammavukku)
ThEn sindhudhE vaanam with charanam of VizhiyE viLakkonru yEtru (Thazhuvaadha kaigaL)
VeNNilaa Odudhu kaNNilE aadudhu (VeLLai puRa onru) with charanam of Kasthuri maanE (Pudhumai peNN)
Janani janani (Thaai mookambikai) with charanam of Ammavenrazhaikkaadha (Mannan)
O poo maalai (Iniya uravu poothadhu) with charanam of Vaa vaa anbE anbE (Agni Nakshthiram)
- From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221)
on: Thu May 18 23:02:05 EDT 2000
VS,
regarding the last pair that u have mentioned, I have noticed that even the BGMs are somewhat similiar in these 2 songs. whenever i hear the first song, i automatically start singing the charanam of the next.
- From: csg (@ 202.144.10.93)
on: Fri May 19 04:49:54 EDT 2000
udhaya, here is my piece of thought, i hope you will like it, it goes like this
1) pallavi - ooranga sri ranga -singara velan it jells with anne anne sippayianne - kozhi kuvuthu even you can play the same rhythm for this song
- From: rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com)
on: Fri May 19 10:18:38 EDT 2000
Vijay: Got it!:-)
- From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com)
on: Fri May 19 10:59:09 EDT 2000
Oops!
See how much a collective brain can gather
in the course of two days! Udhaya, thanks for
starting up this great thread.
Janani/Ammavendru - another song to add is
Isai kettal puvi asaindhadum.
Vijay! You have opened a new dimension to the
analysis, by pointing out the thalam dimension.
Go ahead and your list can be later grouped into a
Tala list (like the raga list). Most of us have Raga familiarity. (or at least Raga lists ;) Is there a website that lists the thalams and their
syllables as you have done?
rajaG. Dappanguthu songs have the thalam
'dangunakkadi takkunakkadi' - which the
folk way of singing konnokkol.
songs to the list:
poduvaga en manasu thangam
- From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com)
on: Fri May 19 11:07:20 EDT 2000
The following songs are also 7 beats but they
dont go with the other 7 beat songs because
of the different raga:
poovannam pola minnum (salil chaudry/bala mahendra)
aararo paatu pada naanum (which movie?)
but they go together.
- From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com)
on: Fri May 19 11:40:53 EDT 2000
The following site has very valuable articles about
different world music traditions. The following
link is an article co-written by L.Subramaniam
about Indian music and has a brief section on Talam.
http://trumpet.sdsu.edu/M345/Music_of_India1.html
I am looking at why songs go together well.
Here is my prelim theory:
1. First and foremost, they should be set to
the same talam (rhythm repetition cycle).
2. Second, they should be set to the same
scale (ragam or same root ragam).
3. More importantly, they should be written for
the same feel or at least compatible situations.
Our MDs have shown they can use same ragam in
a dramatically differnt mood.
Sorry about the diversion to theory. Analysts lose
half the pleasure inherent in pure enjoyment.
:(
- From: VS (@ wwwgate31.motorola.com)
on: Fri May 19 12:51:31 EDT 2000
Vijay, thanks for bringing the thaLam perspective, and rjay, thanks for the analysis. It seems obvious that there has to be a thaLam connection between the sets of songs once it is pointed out, but does'nt strike you sometimes. This sure has been an interesting revelation to me. Thanks again, guys !
Vijay,
Yes the "O poomalai" and "Va va anbE anbE" have very similar orchestrations. This automatic medleying of the two songs happens to me also.
- From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221)
on: Fri May 19 13:09:36 EDT 2000
VS,
u are welcome;)
will try to add some more to that list.
- From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221)
on: Fri May 19 13:16:23 EDT 2000
here is a primer on thalaas and ragams:
http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~boppe/MUSIC/PRIMERS/kprimer.html#8
- From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221)
on: Fri May 19 13:21:34 EDT 2000
anothe rinteresting challenge would be to lis the interchangeable sandhams from the songs that have a 5-beat cycle or in ganta chaapu thaala. I dont think there are many songs composed in this beat cycle. IR sticks to adhi, misra chappu most of the time.
A good example is 'meetadha oru veenai' from poonthottam set in reethi gowlai and ganta chaapu.i know there are more songs but not able to remember. if anyone remembers pl. list them here.
- From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221)
on: Fri May 19 13:25:23 EDT 2000
the cycle is like
THA KA THA KI TA THA KA THA KI TA
Meet aada oru veenai
enai meettum neee ram....
a little bit difficult to sing in this rhythm. i guess thats why hariharan struggled(info provided by Geetha Seelan and also came in mags)it seems to record this song and had to spend several hours in getting it right.
- From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com)
on: Fri May 19 14:05:51 EDT 2000
azhagu malarada (vaidegi kaathirundhal) uses this cycle (5 beats).
One more pairs for medley:
Marainthirundhae parkum marmamenna
with (guess what)
Charanam of Kaadal kasakkudayya (starts eththanai cinema eththanai drama paarthachu)
or
Charanam of Kaikuttai kaadal kaditham
- From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com)
on: Fri May 19 14:18:16 EDT 2000
vijay,
thanks for the link to the taalam section.
It is very informative.
I like your idea of using the vocables
thaka, thakita, thadimi, thakajanu etc.
which help to sing out the beats. They make
much more intuitive sense than the
abstract names by themselves alone.
Differnt cultures/instruments
use different syllable sets like
1. Mridhangam: tham thom nam...
thatheenginathom
2. Tabla bol: tarikita thaka
3. Dumbek: Dum Tek Ga Ke
And of course the folk:
Dum Damakku Dam (Yaaro Yaarodi)
Do you know any write up on konnokol
on the web?
- From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com)
on: Fri May 19 14:18:51 EDT 2000
vijay,
thanks for the link to the taalam section.
It is very informative.
I like your idea of using the vocables
thaka, thakita, thadimi, thakajanu etc.
which help to sing out the beats. They make
much more intuitive sense than the
abstract names by themselves alone.
Differnt cultures/instruments
use different syllable sets like
1. Mridhangam: tham thom nam...
thatheenginathom
2. Tabla bol: tarikita thaka
3. Dumbek: Dum Tek Ga Ke
And of course the folk:
Dum Damakku Dam (Yaaro Yaarodi)
Do you know any write up on konnokol
on the web?
- From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com)
on: Fri May 19 14:19:05 EDT 2000
vijay,
thanks for the link to the taalam section.
It is very informative.
I like your idea of using the vocables
thaka, thakita, thadimi, thakajanu etc.
which help to sing out the beats. They make
much more intuitive sense than the
abstract names by themselves alone.
Differnt cultures/instruments
use different syllable sets like
1. Mridhangam: tham thom nam...
thatheenginathom
2. Tabla bol: tarikita thaka
3. Dumbek: Dum Tek Ga Ke
And of course the folk:
Dum Damakku Dam (Yaaro Yaarodi)
Do you know any write up on konnokol
on the web?
- From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com)
on: Fri May 19 14:36:32 EDT 2000
Oops!
Sorry for the multiple postings.
- From: rameshb (@ 38.169.12.19)
on: Fri May 19 14:54:02 EDT 2000
1 sathiyame latchiyamai koLLada
thlai nimirnthu .... sellada (sathaiyame ..
2 annAnthu pArkinRa kALigai katti ( nenjamundu naeraiyundu, en annan)
athan aruginil Olai kudisai katti
poNNAna ulagendru peyarumittAl
intha boomi sirikkum antha sAmi sirikkum hei..
nejamundu naermaiyundu odurAja ....
3 aasaiyil viLaintha mAthuLan kaNiyO (raajaavin paarvai , anbe vaa)
kaNiyithaL thaedum kAthalan kiLiyo
unakkenna piRanthean .... uRavinai vaLarthaen
raajavin paarvai raaniyin pakkam
kan thaeduthe sorgam kai mooduthe vetkam pon maalai mayakkam(2)
4 kannaana kanmani vanappu kalyaanap pandhalin amaippu (kAthal rAjiyam , mannavan vanthAnadi)
dhaeva dhaeviyin thirumaeni manjal kondaadum maanikkach chivappu
kaadhal raajjiyam enadhu andhak kaaval raajjiyam unadhu
idhu mannan maadaththu nilavu en maarbil nee vandhu ulavu
- From: Jay Narayanasamy (@ nasdgw1.nasd.com)
on: Fri May 19 19:01:10 EDT 2000
1) Chinnaj chiru paravaiyai maRandhu vidAthE
--- Thannanth thanimaiyil Nee irunthal(I for got the first line!)
--- pAL maNam marA Pillai PolE(Hello Mr Jamidar)
2) AthOram manl Eduthu aZhakazhay Veedu Katti
--- Ayiram Ayiram AnkalilE ayya Unnai KanDene(PoranthAlum..)
3) Meetha Oru Vennai
--- saranam form Om Namaha
4) Then SIndhuthE vAnam Unai ENai thAlAttuthe
--- PILLai peRatha penami thAy AnathE(mAtha Un kolil mani Deepam..)
If it doesn't work out dont curse me :-)
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