Topic started by cram (@ 206.103.12.102) on Sat Apr 15 02:38:14 EDT 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
get ready for another round, guys (timepass panna venaam:-))]. no IR or ARR bashing, please, muthallaye sollitten. let's just discuss how each of them has used various instruments. for instance, IR's use of acoustic guitar is unparalleled, while ARR rarely uses it. similarly, IR `pales' before ARR when it comes to electric guitar or keyboards (strictly IMHO, everyone's welcome to disagree). start shooting.
Responses:
- Old responses
- From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net)
on: Mon Apr 24 13:22:34 EDT 2000
Basically, I was expecting this from someone,
The piano scores of raja has been the by far best in the industry till date, (all of India)
ofcourse there are great piece from MSV and Arr, but still raja dominates here.
1. Envannile - jonny
2. Then madurai vaigai
3. Guruvauer appa opening piece
4. Anjali Anjali second bgm
5. Oh Butter fly opening prelude
6. Sangetha megam (great piano work - listen to the left channel for more)
7. Vanam Enna kiziruka – 2nd bgm Vetri Viza
8. Even in the lastest --- hey ram
9. Neram pirithu -- time
MSV
1. Padinor padial
2. rajavin parvai
3. viswanathan vellai vendum
4. ena velai sollu bama
5. unani ondru ketan
6. Engel kalyanam
7. Enai threriyuma
8. Partha nyabam illaiyo
9. Ada varalam
Arr
1. 2nd bgm in July madham vandal – great piece.
- From: MS (@ 129.252.22.9)
on: Mon Apr 24 16:04:22 EDT 2000
Kumar
unnidam mayangugirEn
IR (more):
(10)pon maanE thEduthE
(11)azagu aayiram (prelude)
(12)chinnap puraa ondru
(13)uravugaL thodarkathai
(14)mouna raagam title music (is it keyboard or piano ?)
ARR:
(2)melting interludes (preludes too) of thendralE thendralE
(3)anjali anjali (prelude) just amazing..
- From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.211)
on: Mon Apr 24 17:31:33 EDT 2000
ARR:
Electric Piano (?) in second interlude of veNNilavEy veNNilavEy viNNai thaandi
- From: Kamesh (@ hlr-13-20.tm.net.my)
on: Mon Apr 24 21:23:06 EDT 2000
MS
Mounaraagam - The greatest piece by IR. Surely got to be from piano. Keyboard? No way.
- From: Shankar (@ wwwgate2.motorola.com)
on: Mon Apr 24 23:51:12 EDT 2000
Another song which when played in piano wud sound much better than vocals wud be "ivaL oru iLan kuruvi" (brahma) If i get a chance to meet Raja I would ask him to play the whole song in a piano.....
- From: srikanth (@ 63.226.195.122)
on: Tue Apr 25 08:20:26 EDT 2000
Kamesh,
Mouna ragam : it is piano tone from a keyboard, (Yamaha DX7)
all most all the piano tones in raja songs after 80 are from keyboard.
The keyboard piano tones are 99.9% close to the real ones.
- From: MS (@ 129.252.22.9)
on: Tue Apr 25 12:11:49 EDT 2000
KAmesh:
yEn keyboard avLo kEvalamaa enna ? ivLo veRuppaa ezuthirukkeenga ? :-)
To my knowledge the recent technological advances have given us some wonderful suynthesizers which give sounds very close to natural instruments. anyway that is a different discussion in itself.
- From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net)
on: Tue Apr 25 12:50:11 EDT 2000
start stepping outof topic
Kamesh:
There is a million difference in sound quality between a yamaha psr series keyboards (which is common one used often by non-professionals)
and a professional series keyboards like korg trinity or roland jv's etc,
Piano tone (or any sound for that matter.,) in these keyb are very very close to real tone,
since they are touch response, you cannot identify which is original and which is synth.
(the opening piece in Heyram...neepartha is from a keyboard, it sounds just like a grand pinao)
i still remember the words in magalir mattum...
technology has improved veryyyyy much :))))
Performer is a key, a poor player will play sound horribly in a really piano and good player will sound great on a synth., eg: vijimanual, Mani sharma, vignesh ramanan, a.r.Rahamn etc, these guys have great pair of hands.
end outoftopic.
- From: SRK (@ icache-3.doit.wisc.edu)
on: Tue Apr 25 14:05:21 EDT 2000
Srikanth:
If the sounds on keyboard are so good, how were you able to tell the difference? ;-)
I think there are some instruments where the keyboard just cannot match originals. The leading one among them is violin. After listening to original violins used in WCM, all I can say is that the synth violin sucks.
The same applies to trumpet (atleast the one Raja uses nowadays) and drums. In all these cases, it is very easy to distinguish between originals and keyboards.
Another question I have is: how do you play gamakams on keyboard?
- From: Diwakar (@ 206.175.177.136)
on: Tue Apr 25 14:11:09 EDT 2000
SRK : You don't. :-) I mean, it will be a pale imitation of a gamakam.
- From: Ramyavenkat (@ 208.249.163.130)
on: Tue Apr 25 14:32:37 EDT 2000
The usage of violin by IR is natural Violin where as ARR use key board Violin.The sound effect is good in Natural Violin.
Good for IR.
- From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com)
on: Tue Apr 25 14:57:24 EDT 2000
Yes, I am told by professionals that piano on keyboards these days are very close to the real one. Moreover piano is one of the difficult instruments to record (where will you place the mic ?). But I dont think violin on keyboards sound good, even ARR's. It just sounds different. Maybe that is all ARR wants.
BTW, Why did nobody talked about IR's usage of the triangle ?
:)
- From: hihi:-) (@ psiphi.umsl.edu)
on: Tue Apr 25 15:13:36 EDT 2000
kiru,
who cares ... :-))))
- From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net)
on: Tue Apr 25 15:43:35 EDT 2000
playing gamaaks, picth bender is the key
as i told player is very important here.
in oohlala (Minsara kannavu) hear how arr plays harmonica in keyboards , they sound like real harmonica.
there are special module sampled from philharmoics, the strings sounds are really as great. i belive modern day keyboards have great sounds a very good tool for music, does not spoil music.
- From: Naveen (@ proxy2o.dpn.deere.com)
on: Tue Apr 25 15:47:26 EDT 2000
http://www.cre8ivitee.com/worldslargestpipeorgan.htm
check this site. anyone intersted in buying this pipe organ? :)
kiru.. where will you place the mic??
- From: Udhaya (@ 209.36.218.65)
on: Tue Apr 25 16:29:29 EDT 2000
I noticed ARR used saarangi in the song, "Snehidhanae" to good effect. Has IR used it in any of his songs?
- From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com)
on: Tue Apr 25 17:49:50 EDT 2000
Talking about synths, there is only one keyboard
which was tested out in A-B screen tests,
expert listeners sit behind screen and listen to
the same section being played first in grand
acoustic piano and the next in synth.
Only one keyboard came out a winner, that too,
in 1990. It is Kurzweil 250, designed by an
outstanding scientist Raymond Kurzweil.
If you want to know why synth piano sounds different from actual, here are the differences:
1. dynamics in velocity
2. dynamics in timbre
3. physical model constraints
4. Lack of control interfaces
Basically, a cheap keyboard samples one single
piano sound and then when user wants a different
pitch it is digitally subsampled (just delete
alternate samples to double the pitch!). Thus
the same sound is mapped onto the entire keyboard.
In a real acoustic instrument the waveform will be
entirely different. For example when you play
a bass piano note (C3) and play a high C
say C6 or C7, the waveforms and the spectrum
look entirely different! So this recycling business is a cheap imitation.
Keyboards of the 80s, could afford more memory
and have multi-samples. Basically capture
5 or 6 samples at various positions and then
map within the short ranges. In some keyboards
you could see a sudden jump in sound texture
between say B and C! This is very visible in
instruments like trumpet or clarinet.
Further, if you take an instrument like Trumpet,
not only the waveform is different but the
spectrum (frequency spread) CHANGES during
its play!
Further more, when you play instruments at differnt loudness levels or attack (velocity)
the SPECTRUM changes! (in a flute or trumpet,
some modes of vibration do not come up at all,
when low blowing is done! This is what expert
flutists use to bring out emotional dynamics!)
Kurzweil first introduced two ideas:
multisampling and interpolation. He not only
uses multiple samples, but also interpolates them
from key to key based on a second order regression
model, so the waveform at any key has pretty much
very similar sound to acoustic instrument, because
the sample locations are carefully chosen and the
interpolation parameters are estimated from
actual data - nothing can beat scientific study!
(at least for a long time)
Kurzweil also reproduced quite a few instruments
almost all orchestral instruments and entire
GM palette. K2500, released around 1990 is
still considered a great synth.
It does more than this, it also provides
algorithms for analog sound synthesis and
various algorithms for creating and shaping and
mixing waves. A monster! It is a keyboard I have
been dreaming for years, but would like to learn
my current keyboard well enough first!
Which brings us to performance. Like Srikanth
put it, you need a master hand to get the best
out of a great keyboard. Pitch bend, velocity,
modulation, envelope shaping are some ways in
which a great performance can be brought out
from a dull sound! You can hear Srikanth's
mp3 files to see an expert keyboard play.
Flutes, sax sound like acoustic counterparts
under his expert hands. You can see his
'columbus' midi file on our website and see
the great use of pitch bend.
- From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com)
on: Tue Apr 25 17:54:08 EDT 2000
It is not true that Rahman uses synth violin,
That is blind accusation. You can see his
constant use of expert violinists like
Ganesh Kumaresh in Kadalan and Gentleman and
Sriram in latest movies.
Rahman can make kb sound look acoustic, too,
he says in an interview that he learnt carnatic
classical on keyboard and slogged for months and
learnt how to reproduce gamakams from a kb.
For flute, sax and others there are some new
midi controllers called wind controllers from
Yamaha which take your breath as input into the
synth. For guitar input, there is MIDI guitar.
I believe and I have seen that a great deal of
realism can be brought into MIDI with careful
controller programming. It may not sound like
acoustic, but it can bring unbelievable life
to MIDI sound.
- From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com)
on: Tue Apr 25 17:59:39 EDT 2000
The latest in synth is called Gigasampler.
It is not a synth, but a brute force imitator.
Now because hard drive space is becoming bigger,
and sample playback on PC uses features like
DirectSound, one company has deviced Gigasampler.
Which is basically play every key and two or
three velocity levels and capture say 500 samples
for the piano. It amounts to one or two GB! Then
use some interpolation and recreate the sound.
This is software only synthesis. I have not tried
this software but it is the rave nowadays.
You may say this is not synthesis at all, but
the goal is best sound and techniques are just
the means. Computer chess programs use brute
force skillfully (oxymoron) and can beat
grand masters.(Deep blue)
In any case, Kurzweil claims his piano is better
than the best acoustic piano, because he actually
sampled 7 different world class models, saying that due to the physics of shape, each piano
sounds good in a few registers (octaves). So he
sampled from multiple pianos!
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