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Did MSV have ANY musical defects?

Topic started by SR Kaushik (@ nova1.cs.wisc.edu) on Wed Sep 30 15:21:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Let me make one thing clear: I am not against MSV, but am merely curious about this topic.

I have made an interesting observation. We have so many criticisms of IR and ARR, but I've not seen any criticism of MSV. I haven't listened to many MSV songs, but I wasn't very impressed by whatever I have heard on TV. Whatever it is, I cannot imagine that he did not have any musical defects. Could anyone point them out? I am very interested. It might test the "objectivity" of certain "objective" people regarding the IR-ARR "war"(I'm not hinting at anyone, please do not misunderstand this), but nevertheless, I want to pursue this.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Iowa Iyyapan (@ www.siegesoft.com) on: Sun Feb 13 01:47:53 EST 2000
  
  Pretty interesting Hari. Keep it going.
  
  
• From: RA (@ bay-71.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Sun Feb 13 07:08:12 EST 2000
  
  Hari
  
  That song from Ninaithale Inikkum was my favourite too, particularly the opening brass sections. But the credit should go to Joseph Krishna. You see till the arrival of IR all MDs in Tamil used to have their assistants name also in the credits along with theirs. But when IR came on the scene, he did not because he was doing ever thing on his own. Since then all others also have started that practice of not giving credits to their assistants who also contribute to the whole creative process by some way or other. But the fact is except IR all other MDs depend on help from others. During the last 15 yeras MSV was doing all by himself with the help of new young crop of assistants. Bu for the players it was a time consuming painful process. FOr each and every bgm portion of the song, he will play in his harmonium and the players have to correctly understand and write the notation....
  
  In fact, for Senthamizh Pattu..a film done by IR/MSV...for MSV's home production...for one of the songs IR asked MSV to do the song with his orchestra....For a change the players found it interesting to work in an informal way where MSV plays in his harmonium and players understand the scale and convert it to western notation...but they, IRs players said having worked in a professional and disciplined way for so many years it is very difficult for us (all of us who have been with IR for nearly 15 years) to adjust to this unorganised/adhoc way music making. That is the reason they find it difficult to work with other music directors even when they are not that busy with IR now a days.
  
  When Deva started, he started giving credits to his brothers...because Deva is also like MSV. He can only give the tune. Rest of the orchestrations/arrangements are done by Murali/sabesh. You must be aware that Murali was IR's # 2 KB man for nearly 5/6 years. Before him that slot was occupied by one Dilip, now known as ARR. And at that time L vaidyanathan was IR's conductor. The role now performed by people like Prabakar/Judi for songs and Puru for re-recording for IR.
  
  As to others contributions in IR's music, it is like this. SOme times, when he is busy or tied up with some thing else, then IR has asked others to do the RR work...Gangai Amaran,his guitarist Sashi, Karthik Raja and even Naepolean have done work like that. For example when IR was busy with writing of his RPO work, at that time the Uzhaipali RR was done by Karthik Raja. That is for these films the entire songs were done by IR but the RR work was by these people. There would be hardly 25 movies in his whole career where he has not done the RR for the films with his name in the credits.. of course, there are films like Puthu Puthu Arthangal where he has not done the RR but old RR music from various films of KB were used in that film. Other wise, irrespective of the quality of the final stuff, he is always sincere in keeping his commitments. In fact, there are many occasions where he has done RR for two films simultaneously. Thevar Magan was one such a movie....it was one of those busy Diwali release movie...a period in which IR was neck deep in commitments. If you see my artilce Music Making-The Ilaiyaraaja way! then you would be able understand the whole process better.
  
  RA
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: sk (@ 137.132.2.109) on: Sun Feb 13 08:31:32 EST 2000
  
  RA:
  
  You are giving lot of behind-the-scenes info.
  Please continue.
  
  If you see my artilce Music Making-The Ilaiyaraaja way! then you would be able understand the whole process better..
  
  Is this article on the web?
  
  
  
• From: RA (@ bay-71.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Sun Feb 13 10:56:06 EST 2000
  
  SK
  
  That article is available here http://members.tripod.com/raaja_saga/
  
  
  
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Sun Feb 13 12:52:21 EST 2000
  
  RA:
  
  Can you tell us how you could get so much info ? A sincere question - had you been a part of IR's orchestra ? The details are so many to assmilate in one gulp !
  
  
• From: e.hari (@ 98a6c40b.ipt.aol.com) on: Sun Feb 13 13:12:11 EST 2000
  
  RA,
  That was great. Nice to hear from some one, who was part of the action.
  As per your observation, it seems, except IR, all other MDS can not take 100% credit ( still I have doubt about ARR's name in this list).
  Now you raise an interesting question?. How much a MD can take credit for a song?. I mean, here there were lot of articles mentioning about counter points and other technical details in MSV'music. May be, it would be nice if srikanth, sashi and others can say few words about this.
  
  Frankly, I Consider an MDs work as his own,
  irrespective of who helped him or not, since as a employer, he has right to take the full credits.
  But Is it unfair, I dont know.
  
  Also can you shed some light on ARR's working style, since I feel, like IR, he has a very different working style.
  
  thanks
  e.hari
  
  
• From: e.hari (@ 98a6c40b.ipt.aol.com) on: Sun Feb 13 13:16:14 EST 2000
  
  RA,
  I do know about others doing RR sessions for IR. But still some times, when I listen to some IR songs, I always wonder whether it is IR or some one else has done the interludes. Also what was MSV doing, when he was working with IR in late 80s. Did he play any concrete role in music proess that time?.
  
  Thanks
  
  e.hari
  
  
• From: sabesan (@ pppa86-resalesanfranciscometro4-4r7194.saturn.bbn.com) on: Sun Feb 13 14:03:45 EST 2000
  
  i thought MSV worked with IR only for a very few movies (just helping IR)
  
  
• From: sk (@ 137.132.2.109) on: Sun Feb 13 19:30:20 EST 2000
  
  RA:
  
  You haven't said anything about Govardhanam (the
  brother of R Sudhardanam) who was MSV's assistant
  for a long time. He also was MD for a few movies,
  in which he gave excellent music... remember movies such as
  pattaNaththil bootham and poovum pottum? Why did he not
  become a regular MD? Is it that he simply preferred
  to be an assistant to MSV (and MSV-TKR), unlike
  others like GKV and Shankar-Ganesh?
  
  
• From: RA (@ bay-71.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Sun Feb 13 22:08:54 EST 2000
  
  Hari
  
  It was a wrong notion that MSV was working with IR. For a couple of films, during his peak period, more as a source of financial help to MSV, IR redirected some of the RR works to MSV, period. Later when MSV's finanacial trouble became serious, IR asked AVM to produce a movie and as a publicity point had MSV's name as joint MD for that. And MSV continued that with his own movies later. Otherwise MSV was not part of IR's job at any point of time.
  
  As to your observation that some times you feel that the orchestrations are not by IR is more of a problem of preconceived notions that lead you to such conclusions. Otherwise, believe the speed with which IR works, he just did not and does not require any one fill up any of his creative elements...composing/arrangements-orchestrations/notation writing/conducting... As I said he could effortlessly write and record four songs in a day and do RR for two films simultaneously.
  
  SK
  
  I agree Govardhan was also a long time assistant to MSV/TKR. And as MD on his own produced some wonderful songs. But due to lack of opportunities he became part of IR's orchestra, as conductor for the song recording sessions. He was in this slot for a long time. And a few years back he left IR and joined Deva's orchestra in the same role. And he is still there.
  
  
  RA
  
  
• From: sk (@ 137.132.2.109) on: Sun Feb 13 23:14:03 EST 2000
  
  RA:
  
  Its a bit sad to see Govardhan being kicked around
  here and there like that. I am sure he deserved
  much better. In some interview IR made a statement
  that 'talent alone is not sufficient to make it
  big in film industry'. I am sure this statement
  applies very much to Govardhan. Deva would be much better
  off having Govardhan produce the tunes.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Mon Feb 14 14:29:00 EST 2000
  
  RA,
  that was an amazing article !! I consider you so fortunate to have been part of these things first hand!! You haven't answered whether you were part of his orchestra ?? Any changes in recent times (after arrival of ARR) in IR's working style ??
  
  
• From: sk (@ 137.132.2.109) on: Mon Feb 14 17:18:25 EST 2000
  
  RA:
  
  I finally got down to reading your article. A
  better link would be..
  
  http://members.tripod.com/raaja_saga/make.html
  
  I have heard about this kind of description of
  IR's music making before. But your article gives
  great details with a genuine first hand touch.
  Isn't IR's method too fast for music making? (I am asking
  this with a negative tone.) In spite of the fact
  that IR is a musical genius I think things would
  have been much better if he had done things at a
  somewhat slower speed. May be the reality of
  the Tamil film world in the late seventies and
  later (too many movies being produced) demanded
  him to operate like that. I think the 50's and
  60's were very different. MSV-TKR took-up only
  a few movies (say 10 plus) per year and spent a
  lot of time on each of their compositions. (After
  the 60's even MSV got into the trap of too many
  movies, with a bad effect on quality.) I also got a
  'feeling' from your article that in IR's way of
  working, lyrics did not get as much detailed
  discussion and attention.
  
  
• From: e.hari (@ spider-wi071.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Feb 14 20:11:09 EST 2000
  
  RA,
  A nice wonderful article. It created an impression, as if we are there in recording room, watching the whole process. This is probably the best article, I read on Illayaraja's music making method.
  
  Thanks
  e.hari
  
  
• From: Ramki (@ ptp125.telsoft.net) on: Mon Feb 14 20:57:54 EST 2000
  
  That was a great article RA. Thanks for sharing it with us.
  
  

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