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Did MSV have ANY musical defects?

Topic started by SR Kaushik (@ nova1.cs.wisc.edu) on Wed Sep 30 15:21:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Let me make one thing clear: I am not against MSV, but am merely curious about this topic.

I have made an interesting observation. We have so many criticisms of IR and ARR, but I've not seen any criticism of MSV. I haven't listened to many MSV songs, but I wasn't very impressed by whatever I have heard on TV. Whatever it is, I cannot imagine that he did not have any musical defects. Could anyone point them out? I am very interested. It might test the "objectivity" of certain "objective" people regarding the IR-ARR "war"(I'm not hinting at anyone, please do not misunderstand this), but nevertheless, I want to pursue this.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Fri Oct 2 15:13:19 EDT 1998
  
  Hi guys,
  
  I know it come down to this. But it is good to have come down this way.
  
  My point is also that there is a whole lot of 'posters' who have a soft corner for IR. !!!
  
  Idea is that anyone who has a soft corner for anyone should not prevent from making a proper judgement. !!
  
  Mukund
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ proxy1.dpn.deere.com) on: Fri Oct 2 16:16:43 EDT 1998
  
  Guys,
  My MSV fanhood has never pulled down any musician to grounds, whereus HCIRF here
  just kill other musicians thinking it is a "karpura aArathi" for Raja.
  
  Also I have never spoken much about MSV here, I have never used or pampherd my fan hood in the way the so called HCIRF.
  I have heard more MSV music that you most of you guys here, So I just tried to
  defend him, Natural!. (Bcos this was started by Kaushi- gee he is a great Raja fan.)
  
  Please do not make this personal, It looks like last 5 posting were well planned nuckes against me.,great! I like it too! but it looks like it exceeds,
  
  
  "Idea is that anyone who has a soft corner for anyone should not prevent from making a proper judgement. !! "
  - I follow this very much, belive me.
  
  To prove - I will find atleast 5 poor things MSV has done - by this weekend.
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Krishna (@ mailserver01.sb.com) on: Fri Oct 2 16:56:02 EDT 1998
  
  Exactly! You have all the right to defend MSV, offend IR...but so do others to defend IR and offend others if they choose to.
  
  Further, just as you have a well justified rationale for your pro and counter arguements for MSV, against IR, pro ARR others, others do have rationale also.. though you may perceive them as karpoora aarthi.
  
  I apologize if it has sounded personal..it is not meant to be..I just wanted to point out the irony of your posting supporting MSV...Raaja means a lot to people like me because I see brilliance in his compositions that in my opinion are unmatched, songs that stir up such deep emotions..And when he is attacked unfairly or when people try to compare his works which are unparalled in breadth, variety, numbers and quality to someone who has not acheived as much, we respond based on our opinions!
  
  Sorry if the postings had offended you personally
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Fri Oct 2 18:29:15 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth,
  
  Certainly it is not personal, you should believe me in this. Krishna has said all that has to be said. I basically repeat that.
  
  My point from the first has been that this is all for information and you being very knowledgable with MSV era compared with guys like me in IR era it would be best for you to come up with the faults.
  
  As for me, I certainly have not followed MSV as much as IR. But in order to avoid becoming obsessed with IR I have started collecting all MSV greats. Once again this is all for info only.
  
  To understand the openness I am striving to bring in please see the comments I had made in IR's dabba songs cateogory.
  
  Thanks for any info.
  Mukund
  
  
• From: e.hari (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Fri Oct 2 19:01:15 EDT 1998
  
  srikanth,
  I have not listened your web song, and since now I know, I wont miss it.
  As You might have read it on other threads, I am not a big fan of IR or any one else. I like to listen to all and appreciate, and I hope I did not mean to be anti MSV.
  
  :-)
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Fri Oct 2 19:08:13 EDT 1998
  
  Where can I find the address for the page ?
  BTW, how do you do this italics stuff ?
  Mukund
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-43.il.us.ibm.net) on: Fri Oct 2 20:39:36 EDT 1998
  
  Hey,
  Thanks guys,
  
  Mr.Krishna:You cannot rate my points up here as "Karpura Aarthi" for MSV., when compared with big Raja "deepa aaradhanai" festivals which takes place here.
  
  The title of this thread is itself is pretty funny - Is there be any musician 100% perfect!,
  Yes he had many flaws, but inspite of that he was first in the bussiness, atleast we need to respect him for that.- thats what I did above.
  
  MSV mistakes:
  1. Bad instrument combinations.
  2. Poor selection of percussion.
  3. Too much usage of L.R.Iswari.
  4. His voice for a period.
  5. His rerecording ability after Raja's venture.
  We all knew it was poor only after Raja's RR.
  6. Hindi Influence in many songs.
  7. Tried too much TMS .
  8. Simple Orchestra.
  
  A small info for IR lovers out there (including Mr.Krishna), talk about greatness of Raja - I will join your band just bowing my head - but if this becomes a "Karpura Arathi" and scolds every other musician - this is the only point I go against Raja fans.
  
  (BTW: Great thing he did was he gave us SPB)
  
  Srikanth
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.246) on: Fri Oct 2 21:46:35 EDT 1998
  
  srikanth,
  are u J.srikanth of indiavision? are there 2 srikanths here? iam a little bit confused because there is another srikanth who keeps posting here.
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova15.cs.wisc.edu) on: Fri Oct 2 23:31:40 EDT 1998
  
  Vijay: That's true - there are 2 Srikanths. One is the guy who posts here, who has musical fundaes, contacts, etc and the other is a guy who works in Oracle(see the machine name) and whose mother tongue is Telugu(I think).
  
  Srikanth: I was extremely curious why so many people criticised IR and ARR but never once did I see any criticism of MSV. I posted it as "Is MSV perfect?" mainly to point out this irony. I agree that no one can be 100% perfect musically. Even greats like Mozart have given drab pieces, have been repetitive(listen to Eincleinarcht music and "Marriage of Figaro" - they sound quite similar.)
  
  
• From: JSrikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-62.il.us.ibm.net) on: Sat Oct 3 01:44:07 EDT 1998
  
  HI,
  
  Yes! I am D.Srikanth from India Vision!
  JSrikanth - I have my wife's name as prefix.
  There is also one more Srikanth Here! I have seen his name and postings - people confuse me at times as though I posted something which he would have posted - to clear this confusion though being a senior here (smile), I will add a the prefix to my name to remove confusion.
  
  Above for-MSV postings are mine, which exposed my weakness (or softcorner) to others, currently getting things back from Raja fans due to the exposure - same persons who told I was a ARR fanatic.(Happa - MSV -IR -ARR elaaraium Ezuthachu, I can sleep well now)
  
  Kaushik and other guys - shall we go to another thread -- MSV,IR,ARR bore adikuthapa.
  Ange "Deva,Sirpi etc " oru thirutu goshti is growing and flourshing, at this rate innum 1 varusham - aparam evey year TFM Devasam than.
  I wish we all could do something for that instead fighting over the things.
  
  BTW Kaushik: KR is busy due to Deepavali releases - we will do a conference call - after deepavali I will surely get hold of him - we will talk remastering Raja's scores.
  I am sorry I could not contact him, only way is thru fone, I tried thru some known sources they gave me the same reply. I tried calling him but could not reach him - also numbers have changed in MambalamII exchange - I have asked for his new fone nos - which I should get it by this week
  end. He also has a fax - I sent a fax but no reply yet.
  
  
  JSrikanth
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ elroy.cs.wisc.edu) on: Sat Oct 3 02:31:23 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth: I agree with you - Deva and co are looting TFM today.
  
  About the project, I can understand your difficulty. All of us are patiently waiting.
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02990.mayo.edu) on: Sat Oct 3 13:44:16 EDT 1998
  
  Hi
  
  Interesting discussion. I tend to agree with srikanth at least in one of MSV's quoted drawbacks. Usage of TMS indiscriminately! Dont mistake me--I think there is no one till today to parallel the clarity of tamil and the swara-sutham of TMS in TFM. How can anyone not accept Sindhanai sei maname.... as close to musical perfection as can be. However, there are numerous songs where I would have liked singers like Yesu, SPB, Jayachandran etc at that time when MSV was at his peak to have sung instead of TMS. I agree this was one of his drawbacks. I am not sure about MSV's singing itself--I think he could express emotions very well and had a unique voice and I wouldn't consider that a drawback.
  
  One of the drawbacks mentioned is poor selection of percussion--I dont know what this exactly means. I have always felt the tabla usage in MSV's songs are very imaginative [more so than Raja's; I am saying this inspite of being an ardent Raja fan]. I have also heard people say that the tabla player for MSV was very talented and when MSV would sit down for composition he would have his tabla player, his chief guitar player (for chords) and himself with the harmonium--along with the lyricist. Example--look at Ilakanam maarutho... song--amazing tabla and percussion.
  
  I do agree that his drawback in percussion would be lack of variety of percussion instruments. But this again is a more difficult accusation to make, given the lack of freely available electronic instruments in his era.
  
  One of MSV's drawback is that his compositions are very complex and hence less "catchy". This quality of having simplicity mixed into a composition so as to capture even the masses with lesser musical knowledge/ear was somehow lacking in MSV. Again there were always exceptions but one can always argue saying that his music was always catering to a population of musically refined tastes. I will try to give some examples which might support my accusations. Listen to the song "Kaathal rajiyam enathu, athil kaaval rajiyam unathu, ithu mannan maadathu nilavu, enthan maarbil nee vanthu ulavu..." I have off late become obsessed with this song. It is a fantastic melody to sing but one must be really good at gamakams/brigha's to be able to do justice to this song. Look at the variation to pure carnatic (heavy) in the start of the second stanza--even the words are tough during this portion till eventually the song again takes a turn for the 'light'(as in light music) before it beautifully merges with the pallavi. Guys please listen to this song and experience MSV's greatness. My thought is this kind of song is difficult for the masses to hum easily and hence this is what I mean when I say that his compositions are complex.
  An example of a catchy song (to show you the other side as well) is Raajavin paarvai raaniyin pakkam....This song is pretty simple, "catchy" and was well received by the masses.
  
  Regarding MSV's voice again--please listen of "Amarajeevitham..." in Krishnaganam (the MSV-Kannadasan album) Tremendous outpouring of emotion in his voice can be appreciated.
  
  I will stop here and try to discuss "100% musical perfection" as mentioned by SR Kaushik later.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-14.il.us.ibm.net) on: Sat Oct 3 14:00:44 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  MSV tabla player:Prasad - very very very talented.
  He can play melodies on his tabla - I mean it.
  As sashi says MSV's tabla pieces are more complicated than Rajas - they are placed very well and 25% credit goes to Prasad.
  
  He loses his way getting excited when he tries to mix real western drum scores and traditional tabla.
  
  What ever it is - Shashi thanks for putting some good things - many people here did not belive me when I told the same. Thanks for being my Moses.
  
  Srikath
  
  
  

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