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Compare and Contrast IR's musical style(s), especially with the BGM tracks, with those of composers of Hollywood

Topic started by Music_lover (@ 202.141.98.226) on Wed Apr 28 08:58:08 EDT 2004.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Compare and Contrast IR's musical style(s), especially with the BGM tracks, with those of composers of Hollywood, viz., Maurice Jarre, Henri Mancini, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, Bernstein, John Barry, Alan Sylvistri, Danny Elfman, Ennio Morricone, Howard Shore, Hans Zimmer, James Horner and so on

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Vj (@ 216.148.62.214) on: Sat May 29 20:43:29 EDT 2004
  
  WHAT????????????????
  
  
• From: prabhudas (@ 140.251.171.216) on: Sat May 29 22:24:11 EDT 2004
  
  no wonder... I happened to record this movie "PPA" from telecast ( few months back) for my BGM project, but didn't find anything interesting even in bits, definitely no way nearing KB-IR combo, "Sindhu Bhairavi" or " Rudraveena"
  
  
  Prabhudas
  
  
• From: Gyan (@ 4.158.117.32) on: Sat May 29 22:34:33 EDT 2004
  
  Enakkul Oruvan songs, two are spectacular. One is Engey Endhan Kaadhali, the other song Seer Kondu Vandhavan...etc.. Now IR did a version in Malayalam in Moonaam Pakkam and the song' complete instrumental protions blows you away. It is fantastic, no words to express it.
  
  
• From: prabhudas (@ 140.251.171.216) on: Sat May 29 22:42:16 EDT 2004
  
  Gyan,
  Is it from "Moonaam Pakkam" or "Aaa Raathri"?
  Even just being reminded about such songs gives me my flashbacks, memories associated with the listening of those songs.
  Another must listen for all HCIR fans
  
  prabhudas
  
  
• From: Gyan (@ 4.158.117.32) on: Sun May 30 00:52:29 EDT 2004
  
  prabhudas, it is Moonam Pakkam. Aa Rathri has got two songs, that are mind boggling. See in Mal, IR could not use Synth as much as he did in Kannada songs. Mal films expect very traditional, melodious numbers, that is why in Mal u can hear a different IR. Aa Rathri has two superb superb number: Ee Neelimathan and Kiliye Kiliye, absolutely stunning.
  
  
• From: Satish (@ 128.107.253.41) on: Mon May 31 05:36:11 EDT 2004
  
  Prabhudas,
  
  What is this BGM Project?
  
  
• From: Vel (@ 219.65.120.146) on: Mon May 31 11:36:44 EDT 2004
  
  who is this person Bill Evans? what is ilaiyaraaja's "how to name it" doing here? hmm? See the entries in the year 1994
  
  http://www.billevansdance.org/works.htm
  
  
• From: Vel (@ 219.65.120.146) on: Mon May 31 11:55:43 EDT 2004
  
  and it seems that according to an AMAZON.COM associate company ALEXA, ilaiyaraaja's official site is globally one of the most sought after site..
  
  http://www.alexa.com/browse/categories?catid=205242
  
  
• From: Vel (@ 219.65.120.146) on: Mon May 31 12:14:56 EDT 2004
  
  :-) sorry this list is getting too long...anyways
  
  In the playlist of radio show "Give the Drummer Some", a show voted the York's "Best Morning Radio Show.", surprisingly there is one of ilaiyaraaja's number (for jazz music probably?)
  
  http://www.wfmu.org/Playlists/Doug/doug.980515.html
  
  That too as early as 1998?
  
  
• From: Vel (@ 219.65.96.17) on: Mon May 31 12:31:42 EDT 2004
  
  http://www.kfjc.org/md/pl/2001-05-02/arbor.May.02.10.html
  
  
• From: (For) Gyan (reposted) (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue Jun 1 16:07:32 EDT 2004
  
  I was no MSV fan till around late 90s, can u believe that? IR' energy levels, so many orchestration ideas never before heard, different mood pictures, sharpness in melodies, rhythms all were not MSV traits. But, as I am older I am understanding Carnatic music for the first time and hence MSV' depth, when formerly I wanted energy - Mozart and other Western classical maestro and so IR stayed my Idol because he brought more and more ideas in that sphere of music, doing much more than Western composers have done, in my opinion
  
  So, at a certain musical understanding I find MSV is very Carnatic based than most Indian composers, in fact all in the league of KVM, who was not prolific or very diverse unlike MSV but pure and pure Classical.
  
  Regards Mozart, you got the piece I left out deliberately, right. Mozart is the most unique in Western Classical, for just one significant reason - he is "melodious" and extraordinarily so. Depth, Emotion (Heaviness of Heart) from his compositions - because he gave it microtonal structure. It is close to Indian classical, which ignores polyphony or harmony, other than in film music. Mozart' melodiousness - don't confuse it with melody or beautiful tune structures (which abound in Western classical in Tchaikovsky, Haydn, Bach, Vivalid and so on.) - plus the speed brings out the spontaniety and flow.
  
  Marriage of the Figaro is a great example. But, I stick to my finding that IR is surprised that in Western Music mostly only Mozart has this melodious quality while Mozart also brought out some (a couple actually) super orchestral "sounds" or phrases, which I feel has formed the basis of most of IR' orchestral sounds. U can find it in the 25th Symphony. However, IR is IR and he has been a fountain of Tamil folk music, while opened up his mind to integrate Western classical style orchestration because of his understanding of Mozart' touching genius and also the relating to pastoral feel and mathematical precision of Bach.
  
  IR found the heavy "heart" (Mozart) and the strong "mind" (Bach) of Western classical his favorites for Orchestrational purposes, not for content!!!! Tamil folk & Carnatic was the key to his substance. If you ask me, IR does not speak of Beethoven or others in the same breath, just because most of them took years to calculate notational order, thus were not spontaneous.
  
  As far as I go now, I am enlightened about Indian Classical' harmony free structure, u need a soul, a level of spirituality to appreciate the purpose of a simple song with out Orchestra and without purpose other than to just sing! IR has got a point, there.
  
  
• From: k (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue Jun 1 16:19:16 EDT 2004
  
  Gyan,
  I am completely with you on MSV and Mozart (could you elaborate more on 'melodious' vs 'melodic phrases' ?). One of the reasons I believe indian people are more likely to enjoy Mozart than any WCM composer.
  
  Though MSV's tune are an epitome of carnatic music diluted for film he surely added a lot of WCM to his songs (unlike KVM). This is what makes him a guide for IR. I can hear the WCM arrangements (especially in pallavi and interludes) in MSV's compositions through the SunTV digital broadcast.
  IR goes one step further to add WCM to even the main tune/vocals, usually it is bass line or string or other kinds of harmonies. But IR knows that adding these things will take the 'easiness' out of the melody and many a times, he just does the free flowing melody alone. Usually one song in a movie is set to tabla/traditional arrangements, even when all other songs are modern. It is real challenge to convey an indian melody with harmonic richness, at the same time not hampering its 'free flowing' feel. It is this challenge that IR seems to have taken up as his career goal.
  
  
• From: Gyan (@ 4.158.117.23) on: Tue Jun 1 23:50:46 EDT 2004
  
  k, the melodious vs. melodic tunes is what brings the difference between two systems of music and also, between fans of music. It is voluminuous topic to be analyzed piece by piece in each song. It is not subtle, easily can be discerned, it is intuitively recognized but people do not know until they mature as listeners over several years. That is in my case. However, generally I find the picture as the following:
  
  Melodious vs. Melody or Great Tunes
  
  Unnai Kaanadha Kannum Rendalla by KVM (what a superb melodious song, it is a priceless gem) vs. say, even Aagatum Da Thambi Raaja looks simple but the charanam is striking. Extraordirnarily not melodious, yet brilliant brilliant tune.
  
  Basically, melodiousness gives a flow, a continuity that gives you a joy in the heart to sing along, a fulfillment in the strucuture;
  
  a great tune, which is a uncontinuous continuity, if I might say, however, strikes your mind and awe. That is my observation.
  
  Both are equally difficult to compose, but in the melodious aspect the Singer and the classical listener is the beneficiaries, whereas in the Great Melody, it depends on the composer' ability to fascinate the audience and himself feel satisfied that he did justice with the tune. (Melodiousness needs no justification, it just flows!)
  
  That is how only IR could pull it off in Indian film music very easily, while most composers could not survive if they could not create a melodious tune (generally, in the Hindi and Malayalam film worlds of yesteryears.)
  
  Another:
  
  Anbu Nadamaadum Kalaikudamey (melodious) by MSV vs. Adi Ennadi Raakamma Pallakku ( melody)
  
  Nee Ennan Sonnallum Kavithai, also is
  
  Anthapurathil Oru Magarani by IR vs. O Nenjamey Idhu Un Raagamey or Rakkamma Kaiya Thattu (check the first interlude is melodious, I will come to that displacement aspect and "three level attack" by IR)
  
  Western Pop:
  "I just can't stop loving you" Michael Jackson (very rare melodious composition, it looks like a Great Tune, but by Western system, where they omit the microtonalities, it is one melodious song ) vs. Beat IT. We might all think ABBA was melodious, no they were mostly not, in fact they were one of the thrilling melody (tunesmiths) makers of the times.
  
  IR has generated a larger number of melody or (great tunes) than most composers,
  
  eg: Anbu Mogam Thantha Sugam;
  Kaathodu Poovurasa;
  Raathiriyil Poothirukkum.
  
  But,the secret to IR' " incredible Genius" is his preludes and interludes carry the melodiousness, which are difficult to even sing he has given those tunes to instrumentalists - an excellent example is: the first interlude in "Ellorum Paadungal" (excellent melody and rare tune) but see the interlude it will blow you away - this is the one of IR' most electric interludes that in my biased opinion matches the extremely melodious and highly amazing Mozartian composition Marriage of Figaro or Night Music or Magic Flute, I am not sure which name (it is used as the soundtrack of the movie "Trading Places" - for me the most spontaneous of Western classical compositions!).
  
  Coming to IR' three-level dimension: he wants to attract not less than three main audiences-
  
  one is the musically less savvy, younger crowd (give them a great tune, make it catchy, make it simple);
  
  second is the western classical or even pop oriented crowd who wants some "sophistication!"
  
  and third, the Indian classically sensitive (the melodious) crowd all in one go, usually.
  
  
  How does the Maestro achieve that? while MSV or KVM pleased the musically rich 60s and 70s classically savvy crowd, IR needed to go for a new generation of musically impatient listeners and critics, who will expect some Musical Thrills and may be willing to sacrifice the classical base.
  
  That is IR' modus operandi - He has even admitted that he wanted to take the glory away from the singer and keep it with the composer, thru orchestral brilliance.
  
  So, we have KVM and MSV for the older mature connoisserus of music and we have IR who attracted the minds of a upwardly mobile crowd thru orchestral satisfaction, rhtymic variety, etc.. while IR just displaced the classicism and melodiousness for the voice and place it in the Orchestra.
  
  It is just a displacement of the melodious quality. Not that IR has give fewer melodious songs and Not that MSV has not achieved melodious works in the interludes. It is the reason MSV' songs became MGR songs or TMS songs, because people were fascinated by the melodious "MGR singing on the screen" and " TMS on the radio"!!!!! It is not recognizable as a composer attracting the audience thru the orchestral features of the song!!!!!
  
  Hope you got an idea. In fact, over time, I want to compile a list of melodious versus melody songs in entire Indian film industry. I like to sing a melodious song, but only like to hear IR' magic, that is the reason I find, I listen 90% if the time to IR's song, but when I sing, I sing a KVM or MSV or melodious songs of S-Ganesh or Arjunan or RDB, etc...
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Wed Jun 2 02:21:30 EDT 2004
  
  Gyan and others, in case you guys missed this link
  you must listen to IRs speech in NY. Listen to him singing "nenjam marappadhillai" and referring to MSV's melody making capabilities. Lots of other interesting things
  http://raaja.alittleaway.net/files/IRsEntirespeechinNYmeet.mp3
  
  
  

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