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Did MSV have ANY musical defects?

Topic started by SR Kaushik (@ nova1.cs.wisc.edu) on Wed Sep 30 15:21:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Let me make one thing clear: I am not against MSV, but am merely curious about this topic.

I have made an interesting observation. We have so many criticisms of IR and ARR, but I've not seen any criticism of MSV. I haven't listened to many MSV songs, but I wasn't very impressed by whatever I have heard on TV. Whatever it is, I cannot imagine that he did not have any musical defects. Could anyone point them out? I am very interested. It might test the "objectivity" of certain "objective" people regarding the IR-ARR "war"(I'm not hinting at anyone, please do not misunderstand this), but nevertheless, I want to pursue this.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: kiru (@ 64.166.84.133) on: Tue Jun 19 03:16:50 EDT 2001
  
  guys..sorry..I dont have much time..but for definition of POP you can check out the grammy folks - they do give a grammy in this category. To me TFM is fusion..but it 'was' POP and it is 'now' almost classical. IR is a classical composer who does POP ..ARR is a POP composer who does classical..these are vague theories/opinions I have. For examples. - I can think of now..thenmozhi..enthan thenmozhi is one song that comes to my mind..there are countless instance where I have noticed an indian melody backed up by WCM strings..with different degress of complexity..I have seen this done by MSV too but like I said it is not 'smooth'..Actually, it is not right to compare MSV and IR...MSV is a master after all..even recognised by IR (you can tell why IR respects him from his music, which takes after MSV). .that is why I hazarded an opinion saying that IR 'perfected' or improved what MSV was trying to do.
  
  BTW, I respect comment and others knowledge. But I dont think I am making a 'loose' statement. Like I said, I am willing to change my opinions if somebody can explain to me/us that what I am talking is non-sense.
  
  
• From: Sugrutha (@ 65.11.240.45) on: Tue Jun 19 09:19:53 EDT 2001
  
  "I have noticed an indian melody backed up by WCM strings..with different degress of complexity..I have seen this done by MSV too but like I said it is not 'smooth'.."
  
  Kiru,
  
  By 'smooth' would you imply 'finish' ? I agree. I also agree with rajaG that it was probably because of the technology available in those times.
  
  You say "I have seen this (Indian melody backed by WCM) done by MSV too". Could you tell me which song(s) ? Because I have only heard MSV's Jazz and rock-n-roll oriented songs. I have missed something.
  
  I wish we could digitally remaster MSV-TKR's songs, like they do here in the west with old recordings. HMV is doing the Revival series with old Hindi songs, but it is awful. They just use the voice tracks and freshly record the orchestra.
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Tue Jun 19 14:02:54 EDT 2001
  
  HMV is doing the Revival series with old Hindi songs, but it is awful. They just use the voice tracks and freshly record the orchestra. looks like the indian music companies have no idea of or clue as to how to remaster. i have a couple of "digitized" tmv collections. the quality sucks big time. another big cheat is hamara.com. their 60 minutes customized cd-s are total disappointments. with such a lack of professionalism and commitment to quality we might lose all the old good music in a generation's time :-(
  
  
• From: SUKUMAR (@ ) on: Sat Mar 2 04:46:27 EST 2002
  
  do you think that msv has got the recgnition he deserves from the GOVT OF INDIA , and if not why is TFM industry not do anything about it.And that too having people like BHRATHIRAJA ,KAMALHASSAN very much being members of the jury in varios comitees of the GOVT .OF INDIA
  
  
• From: NaNbaN (@ 12.239.160.236) on: Sun Mar 3 02:35:29 EST 2002
  
  Looking from the moviemaking point of view (POV), I used to believe MSV songs did not have image/visual feel like IR songs. Man I was so wrong. Some examples of MSV song with great visual potential odum megangalee, Maanithan Enbavan, Yaar Antha Nilavu, avalukenna, Enge Nimmadhi, Yaar Yaar Yaar Aval, Malarnthum Malaratha etc..
  
  The only diference(minor) is MSV created the song tune POV but I think IR learned to create more from the situation POV. A plus to the film. But what is so great if the music is good and the soul(tune) is not so good. Moreover the tune is the first feel/visual element so I would say his defects(if there is really any) was compensated immensely with just mind boggling tunes.
  
  NaNbaN
  
  
• From: msvfan (@ 151.201.224.207) on: Sun Mar 3 10:15:41 EST 2002
  
  NaNbaN sir,
  I once heard msv saying a good tit bit on
  "engey nimathi",
  Kannadasan and MSV did not get idea about the situation, tune and lyric did not match the scene. Director just explained him a little, they were not satisfied so they called on Sivaji Ganesan (who was in shooting for some other movie in nearby studio) to act out the scene before hand and they then got the lyric and tune. Very interesting to see the team work.
  
  When time permits, please check the song "ulagam" from ulagam sutrum valiban, hear
  the first string section opening, see how it pans around Expo 70, it is really grand and matches the movie. "sipi irukuthu" is another example for Movie mking POV.
  in a nutshell, director has to explain it clearly, this helps composer to think better.
  
  
• From: NaNbaN (@ 12.239.160.236) on: Sun Mar 3 13:20:18 EST 2002
  
  Agreed. MSV has done it. What I am saying is--he could have done it more. I also think since movies were done in studio, it might have had an impact on MSV to create tunes which outside the studio boundary. And he might had limitation to think in terms of environment/location/set up in grand scale. Like you have pointed out MSV definetely flourished when given a chance with "ulagam" from ulagam sutrum valiban. So I guess we cannot call that as he defects/defiecency.
  
  Yes. Enge Nimmadhi is one of great situation ever created in Tamil songs. I wonder what happened to TFM nowadays...hey Madras...there are the guys...there they are going in car....here are the girls coming in miniskirt... now the song goes.. Duppa..duppa..duppa...akila..akila..akila... heeeeeeeeyyyyyy.....heeeeeeeeeeeeee and our great Deva doing houdini act for the song by lifting it from Western Popular numbers.
  And worst of all we still watch it. Whatz wrong with us. something gotto to be wrong :-)
  
  NaNbaN
  
  
• From: NAGARAJAN (@ 193.194.181.19) on: Sun Mar 3 14:12:24 EST 2002
  
  friends,
  have you listened the song 'kettukkodi urumi melam' from pattikkaadaa pattanamaa.
  The hero is from village and the heroine is from city.
  When the hero sings, the bgm is western and when the heroine sings, the bgm is pure village tune.
  Very Good imagination by MSV. Both TMS and LRE have done their job well in this song.
  
  
  
• From: murphy's law (@ 172.162.57.47) on: Sun Mar 3 15:10:44 EST 2002
  
  NaNbaN,
  
  "So I guess we cannot call that as he defects/defiecency."
  
  Since you are in the guessing mode, I will let you deal with your bias(or lack of it).
  
  Let's do some role-playing.
  It's the 80s.I'm a struggling producer-cum-director who is not so strong creatively and you are the best MD in the scene.All I'm worried about is my livelihood and don't give a damn about movie-making process.But, I'm aware of your working style.
  
  So, I come to you and ask for 5 or 6 songs for the movie I'm going to make.Before asking you I perform a particular ritual(very effective). At this point we both know well that we both don't know anything about what the movie's story is or who the hero is(if I'm not greedy enough to be the hero too).
  
  Then you decide the plot(though you(generously) let me have the credit for that) and song situations. Obviously the plot is song-driven.Then I try my best to make a movie out of the songs.
  
  Then the movie is released and I have a profit.I don't have to worry about my luxury life-style for quite some time.The critics and people who watched the movie complain to me about the aspects other than song and song-situations.Then I perform that ritual again now I know more about your toes than my movies.
  
  Obviously these dumb people don't realize that we both have revolutionized the method of film-making.Who says the movie should have plots and charaters?
  
  At the end of all this,we both are happy.I have my money and you have ascended a level in your musical career.
  
  We lived happily everafter....(making more movies like this)-:)
  
  
• From: NaNbaN (@ 12.239.160.236) on: Sun Mar 3 17:12:52 EST 2002
  
  Murphy sir! If I know anything for sure...I will say it. I am sitting here trying to figure out the Genius mind...so I am always guessing...
  BTW, why are taking a digging at IR? Anti-IR huh!. Thanx for not guessing and showing ur bias.
  
  Obviously these dumb people don't realize that we both have revolutionized the method of film-making Who says the movie should have plots and charaters? ....ROFTL
  
  But producers never lived happily ever after....It is similiar to stock picking game, they always lost money on a long run. Only actors, technician, musicians make money. Producer get shiit in the end (rightfully so).
  
  Back to the theard, I definitely think studio system posed some limitation on MSV songs.
  
  NaNbaN
  
  
• From: murphy's law (@ 172.141.56.254) on: Sun Mar 3 18:34:14 EST 2002
  
  NaNbaN,
  "why are taking a digging at IR? Anti-IR huh!."
  
  That was not Anti-IR.That was Anti(Anti-MSV).BTW, I think you brought IR here in the first place(atleast before me).
  
  "I used to believe MSV songs did not have image/visual feel like IR songs."
  
  These producers cud have lived happily if they knew when to stop and by getting on with atleast some other con!
  
  Coming back to the topic,MSV didn't have a free rein when it came to composing.He had to deal with a lot of stars and their successful stereotyped images and egos(MGR,Sivaji,JaiShankar,Gemini etc).Just look at the percentage of films MSV did for non-stereotyped or lesser heroes then there may be a clearer picture of his creativity inspite of baking the same bread.
  
  MSV clearly understood that music is an integral part to the film.Nothing more nothing less.
  
  Since you said something like
  "I used to believe MSV songs did not have image/visual feel like IR songs."
  I would like to know what is your belief/stance/bias now?
  
  
• From: Shreemathi (@ 172.143.102.158) on: Sun Mar 3 22:01:06 EST 2002
  
  Dear All,
  
  MSV is also a very good popular MD only. When IR comes to the entry level he was on top only. No doubt about it. One more thing, the studio set up for music, orchestra adding effetcs, especially the audio casettes also plays a major role in IRs music when compared to msv. All are great Music Directors.
  
  I would like to point out a song from Thavapudalvan "Love is fine darling" oh what a western mixed one in that song.
  
  
• From: NaNbaN (@ 12.239.160.236) on: Wed Mar 6 22:38:28 EST 2002
  
  Murphy:
  
  Anti-MSV??? . Except for couple of movies MSV was no where scene in 80s. You confused me.
  
  I would like to know what is your belief/stance/bias now?
  
  Please read my first posting.
  
  
  

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