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Best MD forever award of TFM goes to..... because....

Topic started by Raj (@ dhcp80-32.ee.ufl.edu) on Tue Aug 5 19:49:44 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: mannAru (@ ns.arraycomm.com) on: Tue Jun 9 22:29:06 EDT 1998
  
  Srikant:
  
  If MSV was inspiration for IR, then GR must had
  been an inspiration for MSV-TKR. It is unfortunate that people argued a lot for MSV and IR, but not GR.
  
  In fact the orchestration was really started by
  GR, haunting melodies were given by GR. Using the
  karnatic ragas in TFM, in excellant way was
  started by GR. Using western music in TFM started
  by GR. If the best MD's is selected based on the
  above requirements then all MSV+TKR supporterS should support GR also. There is only one difference, GR did not stay that long that MSV+TKR did.
  
  Regarding the arguement that, MSV songs u can
  hear again and again, IR made a statement long
  time back."After 10-20 years people will say
  the same thing about my songs". This is true
  cent percent. If u ask the
  old generation they will say "MKT songs are
  far better than MSV's".
  
  IMHO, in terms of variety, melody, creativity and orchestration, IR is one step
  ahead of any MD so far TFM has seen. It is
  unfortunate that Kannadasan died soon. Otherwise
  IR-Kannadasan combo would have pulled all the
  MSV lovers to the new era of music. IR is a
  phenomenon. That comes rarely. We are gifted
  to watch that.
  
  
  
  
• From: easwaran hariharan (@ ww-to01.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Jun 10 00:00:23 EDT 1998
  
  mannaru,
  i agree with you. MSV/TKR did have inspiration to
  start with from GR and from the hindi music of 50s. The fact that GR scored music for MKTB songs in 30s and also was able to score such a modern (that time) music in the films like mandrakumari, uttampaputran and other films, would be more than sufficient to put him ahead of MSV/TKR, if we go by srikanth's argument.
  I feel, Ranking the MDS is just the individual opinion, there is no strict measurements to go by, IMO, at any day, I feel IR is the best MD, though there are some areas, MSV and others may be better than him.
  
  e.hari
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc36.pr.mcs.net) on: Wed Jun 10 01:01:38 EDT 1998
  
  Since our dear friend, creator and modulator of this great forum, Shri Ravi ;) has in all his might and at a randomly sought discretion, like Lord Shiva who would do thandavas in the heavens upon some provocation from the world beneath, removed a very sincere thread I thought I will throw open the same once again here to enable all of us to have a appreciative look at how Illaiyaraja stood among India's greatest composers (thank God, we really did have One 'greatest' for every 1 million people, today it is a different statistics, what with India's population saying sky is the limit and the music 'composers' saying the west is the ultimate); Ravi has very acknowledgably and most deteriminedly destroyed that thread I had started a few nights back. That is OK, Ravi, I am trying to bring in some more variety by choking all of India, instead of just suffocating our Nadu.
  
  Dear Friends, I think this thread will help in music lovers develop some interest in listening to a few more composers we have in India. I will rank my favorites for what Time has proven right in great measure:
  
  The Greatest Film Music Composers of Bharat (Not Baskar, But India);:
  
  1. MSV (the Greatest of India) simply gave the most complete and harmonic tunes that make you love your Mother Earth and the land and the Times where you were born.
  
  2. Illaiyaraja (the Greatest of this Universe, and beyond Space and Time!)
  
  See, MSV and Raja are of two separate worlds!
  
  3. Salil Chowdhury (the Greatest of the Heavens, hey guys, if you get a chance, listen to Salilda's own mysterious raga which he used to compose most of his heavenly melodies that earth has never seen before)
  
  4. G Devarajan (Too earthy, a different type of melody than the above 3 and can be said to be on par with the Trinity)
  
  5. S D Burman (The original of originals who set new standards and trend)
  
  6. Ravindra Jain (Illaiyaraja of North Indian folk music)
  
  7. Shankar-Jaikishen (the most vibrant Composers of India)
  
  8. R D Burman (Different style, tunes as different as the next one and full of depth)
  
  9. Laxmikant-Pyarelal (Many hits with popular appeal and great beats, also quite prolific)
  
  10. V Kumar (A earlier version of Illaiyaraja, however way too few films)
  
  11. M K Arjunan (His melodies evokes feelings, moods, sentiments, and the softest emotions of your soul like even MSV, Salild or Devarajan has never accomplished.)
  
  12. I think it can be K V Mahadevan, Kalyandji-Anandji, Bappi Lahiri or Kannada films' Rajan Nagendra or Vijay Bhaskar or one of the Classical Greats who have done relatively very few films such as Hindi's Roshan, Rajesh Roshan, Hemant Kumar, Madan Mohan, Vasant Desai, Hridayantha Mangeshkar; Malayalam's A T Ummer, Raveendran, Johnson; could include Sankar-Ganesh, Baburaj, Naushad,
  
  My aim to place MSV and Raja in proper perspective by placing them alongside their peers of the same musical age. In the ultimate analysis all of the above in terms of quality and brilliance of compostions, they are on par with one another, except that many of them may be judged a scale lower if seen from the number of hits each made.
  
  Just as Western composers have in their pride a great many geniuse composers, India should also take great pride at the variety and the many number of brilliant composers that we have seen and that only in a span of 50 or 60 years.
  
  Please appreciate this presentation as having a broader scope and as a means to knowing that in India we do have variety and it is not just Illaiyaraja or MSV all the way.
  
  A disclaimer: I have not come across popular composers from States other than Kerala, Tamilnadu, Karnataka, Bengal and Maharashtra, so I may be wrong in my assessment and since I constantly seek to find out if there is anyone else out there who is only known to an esoteric few, it would be good to know from you folks.
  
  Thank you.
  
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc36.pr.mcs.net) on: Wed Jun 10 01:14:17 EDT 1998
  
  Folks, A Sincere Correction:
  
  Ravi, who I am comparing with Lord Shiva, has not destroyed my thread. Please forgive me for the wrong claim in the first paragraph of my earlier response. Ravi, Mannichiddu Sir.
  
  Thank you.
  
  
  
• From: RV (@ 1cust5.tnt2.sfo2.da.uu.net) on: Wed Jun 10 02:25:39 EDT 1998
  
  MSV-TKR - for in every movie at least one song appeals to me. I cant say that about any other MD - not IR, not GR, not KVM, not MSV, not SMS. I hv never come across a MSV-TKR movie in which all songs are bad.
  
  
• From: Ravi (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on: Wed Jun 10 10:49:04 EDT 1998
  
  Nithin: I do not randomly choose to delete/terminate threads. As I explained in "your" thread this place is for discussing TFM only. If the variety is not enough for you, you could try RMIM as Ramki suggested. If it is IR's position among Indian MDs that you are trying to determine, I suggest that you try the 'IR is best MD in India thread'.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ socks14d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Thu Jun 11 12:10:45 EDT 1998
  
  

  If IR is the best MD in India, I don't understand how a discussion could arise as to who is the best in TFM. If we approach MDn as a profession, the best MD is the one who has the best skills, aptitude(or inclination) and qualification for it. Applying a variation of Heisenberg's Uncertainity Principle (or Ian Malcolm's statements in 'The Lost World', for that matter), it would be impossible for us to determine the best MD in terms of pleasure obtained from their music. Our judgement really would be tainted by our level of involvement in the subject. But by using skill, aptitude and qualification as determining factors, I think there is no question that Ilayaraaja is the best MD...forever. Well atleast uptil now, but seeing the current trend where a lack of skill, aptitude and qualification seem to determine the success of a MD implies that it is going to be down hill all the way from here. With IR, TFM saw its peak in terms of quality and quantity of output. If MDn is a profession and TFM is an industry, it can never get better than it was in IR's heydays. Heart rending songs ? You can't get more heart-rending than 'Katril Endan Geetham'. IR beats MSV hollow in ALL spheres of music.
  

  
  

  
  Time & generation have nothing to do with appreciation - I always thought Kamal was the ultimate actor and Sivaji was an overrated, 'over' actor. I was born on the last day of '74 and grew up with only Kamal as an example of a good actor. And then I saw a couple of Sivaji's earlier movies. Quality has nothing to do with time. it is immortal. IR would have grossly over shadowed MSV had he been there in the 60's. Somebody in this discussion said that IR has scored only 2 BGMs per song whereas MSV has scored more than 3 for some songs. For one, quantity does not compensate for quality and second, whoever made that claim is not aware that the prelude is the 1st BGM and usually there are 2 more BGMS that follow in the form of interludes. For sheer numbers listen to "Vaanam Keezhe Vandaal Yenna", "Idayam Oru Koil" etc. They all have 4 BGMS. Technically speaking, MSVs songs lack the orchestration (Orchestration does not just mean using 100 violins) and depth that IRs songs have. And yes each time you listen to IRs songs, you can unearth a different facet to them. I discovered this the hard way - as a Bass Guitarist for our LMT (Light Music Troupe :D) - Ragadhara. You have to wade through layers upon layers of classical guitar, flute, violins, cello, drums etc., till you find the Bass score meandering and occasionally rising up in the throes of ecstacy to accentuate that lead violin. Hear and say thanks that you lived to hear someone like IR.

  
  Srinath
  
  
• From: Ramamurthy (@ 207.252.246.30) on: Thu Jun 11 17:14:42 EDT 1998
  
  No list of best Indian music directors is complete
  without the name of Naushad at the top.To equate him with anybody other than MSV,IR or GR is not
  rightt.Anyway most of the lists are arbitrary and depends upon the individual's taste.
  Ramamurthy
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc36.pr.mcs.net) on: Thu Jun 11 20:48:08 EDT 1998
  
  Ravi, thank you for your reply.
  
  
  Srinath, your analysis takes us to the core of why behave the way they do as a herd of buffaloes. There is a herd here(IR), there is a herd there (MSV, everywhere a herd, herd (ARR). It is a question of who heard what and when and also where.
  
  Your own personal experience on Kamal and Sivaji is the key to understanding the underlying influence of the formation of the herd groups. Different ages bring with it a different set of values and environment. Look at the 60s, time of innocence, family values, respect, romance and a genius like MSV was nurtured and who gave us the best there is as inspired by the values grounded in the psyche at that time. You know there was no place for rebellious generation x or whatever it is attitude, no place for disrespect, no place for open attitude to sex, everything was in moderation and well balanced. As a result, there was limited scope for volatile or grunge again whatever form of expressions, like what we see today in those various popular urbane dance music.
  
  You belong to a herd of the 70s. I belong to the buffaloes of the 60s. There is a new series of buffaloes of the 90s, believe they are a lot different than us. With time, these will also join our group!
  
  What I am saying is you and I are able to find true geniuses as we advanced in years. That is, you found Sivaji as a tremendously gifted actor and your interest in Kamal lost a footing, and I found MSV as good as Raja is, which you may not agree to as you are a little too involved in Raja' brilliance. All I can say is wait until your interest in music wears a little thin, then you may give a chance to a composer like MSV and find the brilliance. I do not mean that Raja is not what you believe to be, but the likes of you of the 70s will also find MSV a cut above if you gave a chance to yourself!
  
  I have been through same experiences as yours.
  
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ socks8d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Fri Jun 12 10:46:00 EDT 1998
  
  Nithin:
  What I am trying to ask is that, when I can accept Sivaji as a better actor than Kamal, despite the generation gap and initial bias, why I am unable to accept MSV as IR's equal ? Surely the fault cannot be with me ! I am flexible enough to appreciate true talent when see it. As far melody is concerned, MSV may have been as good as, if not better than, IR. But when it comes down to the definition of a musician or MD, I think IR deserves the mantle of the BEST. I can already accept MSV as one of the greatest. In fact, next to IR his is the first name that comes to mind when talking about MDs. But IR has always had something more in him. He seems so much more complete as a musician than MSV ever was. Quality of music produced by both might have been near par. But other things being equal IR has done it more often. Now, if you claim that IR was able to do it more often only because more movies were produced then I would ask you to consider the fact that with more movies it becomes tougher to even maintain your standards. Maybe someone could come up with a comparsion is terms of good music and their number. That way, I am fairly confident that IR would have scored tunes as good as MSV and also done it more often would be proved as fact. This is not intended to play down MSV's achievements, but I have always found 'more' to listen to in IR's music. Perhaps you could suggest some MSV songs that could prove to me that he was on par with IR in all areas of music. I also understand taht it will only be to my benefit to accept MSV to be as good as, if not better than, IR. Just imagine, the number of songs I could listen to would be doubled :-))))
  
  

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