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Did MSV have ANY musical defects?

Topic started by SR Kaushik (@ nova1.cs.wisc.edu) on Wed Sep 30 15:21:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Let me make one thing clear: I am not against MSV, but am merely curious about this topic.

I have made an interesting observation. We have so many criticisms of IR and ARR, but I've not seen any criticism of MSV. I haven't listened to many MSV songs, but I wasn't very impressed by whatever I have heard on TV. Whatever it is, I cannot imagine that he did not have any musical defects. Could anyone point them out? I am very interested. It might test the "objectivity" of certain "objective" people regarding the IR-ARR "war"(I'm not hinting at anyone, please do not misunderstand this), but nevertheless, I want to pursue this.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: G.Ragavan (@ ppp-89-18.bng.vsnl.net.in) on: Tue Feb 15 00:45:36 EST 2000
  
  Nobody disagrees with Illayaraja's talents. But, too much of love over Illayaraja leads some people to speak Nobody other than Illayaraja is knowledged. Especially MSV (who was replaced by him) and ARR (who replaced him) are criticised much.
  We now talk about MSV. We should understand the work of Music condutors (Joseph Krishna and Henry Daniel). Music director scores the tunes and rhythm. He decides the musical notes to orchestra. The conductor writes and just conducts the orchestra during recording. Any music director can do this. Since their schedule is busy, that they will give it to conductors. Joseph Krishna and Henry Daniel are such condutors. They are not decision makers on tunes, rhythm and musical notes. Even Illayaraja uses Music Conductors. In his peak period, Illyaraja just gave tunes. Either Gangai Amaran or (I forget the name. Vedam Puthithu music director) does all other work.
  Atleast MSV had a curtosy to add their name in title. Don't under estimate MSV. Illayaraja is a good music director. We are lucky to get him. Just due to the love on him, don't throw mud on MSV.
  If Illayaraja is greatest, even now he should be the top music director.
  And the information given about MSV/TKR(only ten films per year) is totally wrong.
  About "puthu puthu arthangkal", Marakathamani helped KB to finish the work.
  As IR said that talent is not only enough to become popular. Understand the stament properly. To become popular, with talent we should have some have qualification what IR and MSV had.
  Without talent nobody can survive.
  
  
• From: sk (@ harvest.ucar.edu) on: Tue Feb 15 01:53:06 EST 2000
  
  Raghavan:
  
  If I guess right, you are upset by the remark made
  (earlier by RA) that people like Joseph Krishna
  played a crucial role in MSV's songs. Now I don't
  know whether that is true or not.. neither do I
  care much about that. The golden success of MSV(+TKR)'s
  music was due to the great melodious tunes and
  everyone knows where those tunes originated from.
  (Hopefully no one will come around and say
  something like.. 'Govardhan did all the tunes'. :-))
  
  Now let me just respond to what you wrote in
  response to my postings. First, about statistics.
  The peak period of Viswanathan-Ramamurthy was
  between 1959-1965. In these 6 years they worked
  on 64 movies.. which comes to about 10 to 11
  movies per year.. and that is what I said. But
  what is to be noted is that they put tremendous
  care into each and every song they made in that period.
  Except a few songs here and there, every song was
  a hit. In no other period of TFM such a thing
  happened. That was what I was pointing to.. the
  time and care being put into each and every song!
  May be you misunderstood what I tried to say.
  
  Next, you have said..
  
  As IR said that talent is not only enough to become popular. Understand the stament properly. To become popular, with talent we should have some have qualification what IR and MSV had.
  Without talent nobody can survive.
  
  I didn't catch what you were trying to say. Can you
  please elaborate?
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ spider-we033.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Feb 15 02:17:21 EST 2000
  
  SK:
  There is no substitute for the element of creativity which is the dominating factor of melody making in MSV's(TKR) tunes. I remember most of the songs that listened as a kid even today as they haunted my mind instantly and continue to stay for ever. MSV's inability to write western notes can not be considered as a negative factor, he probably did not need to.
  
  I would like to ask two very simple questions here.
  1) What kind of role did Joseph Krishna played for the song "enge nimmathi", the most powerful audio/visual in TFM history , IMO.
  2) If conductors and arrangers can take the credit for music (whether songs or film's BGM), then can we take away the credit from IR for Hey Ram's BGM since it was conducted by hungarian?
  
  I have no doubts that IR is a complete musician , I myself have stated this long time ago. But, the creativity of MSV/TKR can not be belittled in the light of their assistants conducting/arranging some violin/guitar sequences.
  
  
  
• From: Venkatesh (@ ww2.ssbcd.co.om) on: Tue Feb 15 05:50:52 EST 2000
  
  MSV has done RR for IR for the movie 'vidinjA kalyanam'. I think it was a Diwali release and the producer was in a tight spot due to lack of time, like the title itself. MSV at the request of IR, has helped him. He told this in an interview.
  
  
• From: sk (@ harvest.ucar.edu) on: Tue Feb 15 06:58:08 EST 2000
  
  rameshb:
  
  I agree with the deep effect of songs that impress
  during one's childhood. I guess it is applicable
  to everyone.
  
  Regarding 'engE nimmadhi' I don't think Joseph
  Krishna was an assistant during those days. I
  think Govardhanam and Henry Daniel were the
  assistants for pudhiya paRavai. I don't know if
  they played any serious role in the compositions.
  I am not sure whether anyone here can answer such
  questions. I think RA and others are only
  knowledgeable about MSV's working in the late
  seventies or much after. Whereas, 'engE nimmadhi'
  came in early 60's. But I am sure TKR would have
  played a very important role. They say he was a
  'violin mEdhai'. Sivaji G must have been fortunate
  to get masterpiece material from VR in this
  movie that he produced.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.151) on: Tue Feb 15 07:48:39 EST 2000
  
  RA!
  A great article!
  
  
• From: G.Ragavan (@ ppp-89-18.bng.vsnl.net.in) on: Tue Feb 15 08:03:27 EST 2000
  
  I just wanted to say MSV had talent and some luck like IR
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ hoproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on: Tue Feb 15 09:46:37 EST 2000
  
  G.Ragavan,
  IR did'nt replace MSV nor ARR replaced IR. Neither MSV nor IR can ever be replaced. Its just a dawn of a new generation. On hindsight, one can say from a commercial sense but thats all the replacement can stretch. MSV/TKR and IR are legends and they have left huge foot marks which can never be erased nor replaced.
  
  One point I would like to make(maybe a digression), when IR inherited from MSV(would call the passing the torch) a complete turnaround in the art of music making took place. By this I mean the art of composing. Strong reliance on discipline and bringing western classical into TFM. But sadly enough when ARR took over(I mean from the commercial sense) no efforts were made to introduce new concepts nor atleast maintain previous generation strengths.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Tue Feb 15 10:18:48 EST 2000
  
  "no efforts were made to introduce new concepts" ?
  
  Anand Mahadevan:
  Surely you do not mean that statement ! If at all, the largest shift between musical styles was from IR to ARR !!! ARR has probably introduced more new things (a favourite debate of Srikanth ;-)) to TFM than IR did. Of course, not all of them are good or enjoyable. As for maintaining strengths from the previous generation, IR did compromise on melody and if ARR is guilty, so is IR ! As far as music making goes, ARR too has changed the face of composing *completely*, though I personally don't hold this change in great esteem. Needless to say, my own opinion of the best is pretty well known in the DF :-)
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ hoproxy2.proxy.lucent.com) on: Tue Feb 15 11:13:37 EST 2000
  
  Srinath,
  "IR did compromise on melody"
  Am not sure I agree with you on this. I would like you to substantiate this statement.
  
  What I meant by composing was the ability to coherently compose one's musical thoughts and put it in writing. This is clearly reflected in IR's composition. You do'nt have incoherent breaks. The song/composition is thought thru from its inception rather than a piece meal effort.
  
  Regards to ARR introducing new musical styles,I do'nt want to drag this into a doggy.We have had enough discussion on this and our positions clear.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Tue Feb 15 11:55:25 EST 2000
  
  Anand Mahadevan:
  To compose WCM based songs, an MD will have to increase the dependency of his compositions on chord progressions. This naturally decreases the melodic independence of a tune. That is, the tune is restricted by various factors that determine the pattern of chords. If you expect me to substantiate this by quoting statistics, I am afraid it is not possible. But it is fact that IR's style of composing is far too organized to come up with spontaneous bursts of melody with a frequency approaching that of MSV's. It goes without saying that this need not indicate inability of IR to compose melody based songs - he has done so often, and is still doing it with varying degrees of success. He just probably chose to compose this way.
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ hoproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on: Tue Feb 15 12:31:06 EST 2000
  
  Sirnath,
  IR songs are are not WCM based. Its just that he used WCM to pep up the harmony. Melody did'nt get affected a wee bit b'cause of chords. Chords infact heightened the underlying melody.
  One has to sit in IR's composing room to figure out his methodology. But from whatever I infer from his compositions , WCM and harmony play a supporting role and the core is a strong melodic structure.
  Melody cannot be degraded b'cause one chooses to introduce chords.
  To give an example ,"Aaananda Raagam" from panner pushpangal has grand WCM opening score followed by some outstanding WCM movements in the interludes but the underlying melody is untouched. I can visualize the same simmendhra madhyamam score from MSV or the current melody king.No to belittle their composing skills but to state that WCM in no way hinders one's melody making capacity nor it spoils a WCM mixed song.
  "Guys, sorry for this digression".
  
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Tue Feb 15 13:52:24 EST 2000
  
  Anand Mahadevan:
  The melody in "Aananda Raagam" is greatly impaired by the need for orchestration. Throughout the song, the melody is comfortably broken into the same (or relative) bar count as for the chords. Particularly for the beginning of the charanam ! Even the interludes are broken. They are grand and impressive, but not melodious in the strictest sense. The individual notes rest on each bar for the approximate duration of the correspoding chord stroke (I know that statement sounds convoluted, but it makes sense :-)) The tune sounds great, but the tune has been obviously constructed to allow comfortable chord placements. The heavy "ghamakams" that you hear are nothing but three-note combinations that progressively increase in pitch. Great melody requires more freedom than that !
  
  There are also several instances in IR's where chord changing (even if you know the right ones) is pretty difficult, especially if you want to play the correct inversions. But the vast majority of his songs have great chord patterns, which are placed aptly without any discomfort. To say that IR's tunes are independently constructed without giving consideration to the chord progression is to deny him credit for one of his greatest strengths ! You will certainly agree with me that this is the reason why people find other MDs creating "melodious" tunes without having to worry about chord progressions ! These readings are not the result of any indpeth analysis of all or even a significant portion of IR's songs. My conclusions are made as someone who is reasonably familiar with the innards of a song. It is entirely possible that I might be wrong !
  
  

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