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ToO MuCH mUsic, tOo hEaVy, ToO CoMPleX: wROng aPprOacHE Of rAJA iN tHe 90s

Topic started by rAJA FaN (@ spider-wg071.proxy.aol.com) on Tue May 4 22:59:57 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I was listening to Kaadhalar Dinam song: Kaadhelennum Ther.... (the only likeable song in that film by the way and I am in love with this ARR song after so many years!!) I began to understand why IR is losing a hold on today's (students) audience. ARR has very little music to offer and that is his absolute strength! Come On, IR fans look at it in a different perspective. ARRs approach is straightforward. Whatever little, package it well, spread it thin and out, give it a consistent and steady rhythm, forget the interlude, (who can sing them anyway)make it seem more introspective like a cricket 5 day test match, slow, deliberate and enough time in between for discussion on what is likely next, etc. ARR's lack of musical spontaneity is his greatest strenght, whereas IR's spontaneity is his greatest drawback in the all of 90s. Too thick for anyone of today' world to enjoy it in a leisurely pace without being knocked out by the complex arrangements, now very predictable sequences in the pallavi(algorithmic), interludes and charanam (usually where you see the ingenious and unpredictable IR, but even then..) Please don't think that IRs songs before the 90s come under attach here, no way. That is the golden age unfortunately of the analogue age!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But, my intent is to open up a discussion to throw in the many songs that I felt that IR gave too much music and that is why he could not attract the real music buyers (not lovers, mind you, there is a difference!) Even his sons are having so much in each of their songs, it is difficult to enjoy as much as you can enjoy an ARR song, even though you wonder how the heck did you enjoy it. Welcome to the digital world of new age music, where little is much better than a lot of music.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: hari (@ hud04a01.ml.com) on: Wed May 5 17:50:48 EDT 1999
  
  k guys,
  It is amazing to see how people come up with so many differnt comparision, when they support IR.
  The sad part is, in their anxiety to defend IR,
  they are missing the core part of this discussion.
  Again I will try one more time.
  I am not saying that IR music is complex, heavy and difficult to understand. I feel that there are few songs, it was unwanted and ended up spoiling the song * Now dont jump on saying that IR never spoilt any song, though my instinct says, some one would. :-)
  
  hari
  
  
• From: Velaiyaththavan (@ swami.ece.sc.edu) on: Wed May 5 18:28:19 EDT 1999
  
  indha kudumich chaNdai OyavE Oyaadhaa ?
  
  Rasu kaNNu, nAn engiyum pOyidalai..inga thAn irukkEn..enna konjam saththamillama irukkEn..
  :-)
  
  
• From: Rags (@ stingray.cincom.com) on: Wed May 5 22:20:58 EDT 1999
  
  Reminds of a simply stated fact in a book I read "The world appreciates MEDIOCRITY and is scared of EXCELLENCE".
  
  Our friend has proved how true that statement is!!
  
  When the majority of the world prefers to buy a book based on the cover, there are a few (and many here in DF!) like me who prefer to go by the contents.
  
  
  
• From: kalkii avatar (@ 203.231.134.67) on: Thu May 6 00:10:34 EDT 1999
  
  either you guys have a lot of time or you have nothing else to do. why can't you just listen to a song, enjoy it. doesn't matter who composed it or how or why? music is for enjouyment not for debate.
  
  And one more thing: Go get a life you guys.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.131) on: Thu May 6 01:35:24 EDT 1999
  
  And Raja fan, the very first song that you refered (maru padiyum) has been popular in fact. Not just popular, it was so much appealing that a MFM composer stolen it note by note and made a big hit song in Thenmaavin Kombathu (a Mohan Lal film that even got the best MD award in Kerala). Now what do you say for that? IR should remove something from that song etc. does not hold any water.
  
  (FYI, Thenmavin Kombathu is the original for Rajini's Muthu)
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Thu May 6 03:20:49 EDT 1999
  
  And the proof for eden's statement comes from this link:
  
  http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/cinema/6849/manum.ram
  
  
  
• From: NaNbaN (@ nyor1ts1.ny.us.ibm.net) on: Thu May 6 04:20:11 EDT 1999
  
  Hari:
  I just got inspired by Dorai's "Simplicity tunes".
  I am not defending IR in anyway. I am just saying how I look IR and ARR tunes. I never said ARR is making bad DRESSES.
  
  NaNbaN
  
  
• From: Rags (@ stingray.cincom.com) on: Thu May 6 05:04:43 EDT 1999
  
  kalkii avatar - can't I hv lots of time AND nothing else to do ? :-)
  
  
• From: pg (@ client-116-209.bellatlantic.net) on: Thu May 6 06:47:04 EDT 1999
  
  Have you guys seen Amadues ?
  The Emperor denounces Mozart's opera (The Magic Flute, I think) as 'having too many notes'.
  
  Keeps me thinking...
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Thu May 6 10:17:47 EDT 1999
  
  I think hari has a point - there are songs which have lengthy interludes and some *unnecessary* elements(the definition of this `unnecessary' is debatable :-) ) interludes that disrupt the flow of the song. Lets not make this into another IR-ARR fight, but rather discuss about such songs.
  
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ gateway7.ey.com) on: Thu May 6 11:10:56 EDT 1999
  
  Hari,
  No MD spoils a song by purpose. Its the perception of the audience to feel whether its good or spoilt. IR very rarely has spoilt any song. Some of his songs may not sound that great. But it does not mean he spoilt it with Complex Music, Heavy Music etc. etc.
  
  If we compare IR with other MDs, ARR for e.g though not consciously but spoils a great no. of songs. E.g Padayappa, Jodi, etc.
  
  I ask Ravi to close this thread or classify it under djhkkjkddsjkds category
  
  
• From: e hari (@ hud04a01.ml.com) on: Thu May 6 11:29:50 EDT 1999
  
  chandy,
  Thanks, There are more IR songs, I felt this way. But stargely, I started feeling this, only after ARR, so I wonder, may be Im influenced. :-)))
  nanban,
  Even if we accept your analogy (if I try hard), it is basically flawed. Sculptures needs lot of time and effort on the other hand dresses doesnt need same amount of time and effort. We all know, in between IR and ARR, who takes lot of time to compose songs.
  Dorai.
  No writer wants to write trash, no player wants to play bad, but it happens, because we are all human. If this is simple enough to understand, you
  know, what I am trying to say :-)))
  
  Nanban's comparsion is hilarious ( sure djhksd stuff), not this thread, IMO.
  
  hari
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02990.mayo.edu) on: Thu May 6 15:12:48 EDT 1999
  
  Hi everybody
  
  Once again it is good to see DFers like 'Raja Fan' start a topic and try to analyze if there are downsides in IR's music. However, trying to express something that one feels (hears) is very difficult (be it appreciation or criticism)
  
  The easy answer is--just listen to it and you will find out what I mean. Again, because people are different, they tend to hear different things, at different times and that defines their identity as an individual!
  
  In order to bring some subjectivity into the discussion of the downsides of IR, I had previously discussed the theoritical style(in the now infamous 'Raja's theoritical approach to music'), let me start by giving an example.
  
  There is a wonderful song in 'Hey, OrAyiram..' in Meedeum Kokila. Please take a moment to recall this wonderful tune.
  
  Notice that the pallavi is just one single line. Thats right just a single line.
  
  Hey, Hey, OrAyiram Malargale Malarnthathu Ulagile Ithuvey sugamthaanO!
  
  Notice the different length's(atksharam's) of each word in the pallavi.
  
  Beleive me (I am saying this as a fledling composer) it is very difficult to take these words and set it to music. And my God what does Raja do. He takes this 'Yorker' of a pallavi and not only digs it out but manages to 'drive it straight past the bowler' (if you will).
  
  If you carefully notice, there is no possibility of a symmetry in the pallavi and hence Raja uses the words effectively in an ascending manner of swaras to end the word 'idhuthanO' in 'Hey' where the pallavi repeats itself.
  
  I am awestruck by his creative skill, but if I had to pick a downside--I would say the words OrAyiram and Malargale appear unconnected in the tune but they are to remain connected if the meaning of the song has to be understood without even the slightest hesitation by a listener. Nevertheless, a wonderful effort.
  
  Now, coming to the point--this kind of creativeness is what is lacking in todays IR. Why? One of the simple reasons is that the above tune was composed to a written lyric and this requires greater creativity than any of the recent IR songs that have symmetric (theoritically derived) progression, which have mindless lyrics (predominantly) penned.
  
  If DFers still have problems in understanding my logic, I request those of you who are creative to try to come up with an alternative tune to the above song I have discussed (especially Srikanth, Mr. Kuzhapam! (if they are not one and the same), Srinath, Raj and other IR fans and music lovers.
  
  My humble opinion is that unless IR tries to encourage quality lyrics and tries to set them to music, he is not going to reconquer the place he once held. Infact, I have heard quite a few ARR numbers that feels like they have lyrics set to tune. This however, does not discount some mindless junk (called compositions) of ARR.
  
  The other day I was listening to one of my favorite albums 'Krishnagaanam' by MSV. I just cannot describe the sheer beauty of each of these compostions. They bring out the beauty of the lyrics so elegantly. In fact in the song "Gopiyare , Gopiyare, konjum iLa vanjiyare..." by LR Easwari (my least favorite singer), MSV has managed to bring in the Dhandia style in the start of the song. This is so apt because the so called 'Gopiyar's' are Gujarathis and dhandia is their dance. I am happy ARR is following in the footsteps of MSV in regards to some of the tunes, but he has to go a longway before he gains mastery over the art of composing tunes to written lyrics.
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Thu May 6 16:50:00 EDT 1999
  
  Shashi,
  
  Your post was interesting. That was a great example of setting music for given set of lyrics rather than writing a song to fit a given tune. The analogy is like weaving a mundanai for the given saree, versus, weaving a whole sari for a given mundanai! Composing a tune for a given set of lyrics is a real challenge for any MD and some disparity might creep up when a MD tries to build his tune around a given set of words and lyrics. And I appreciate your argument that IR should try and do tunes for given set of good lyrics, rather than depend on some of the current lyricists hes working with. Else, he needs to look for better lyricists.
  
  The point hari has raised is a bit different... Among other things, he is referring to the interludes in the songs which are a bit "over done".
  
  Dorai, some of the people are interested in discussing this issue. you are free to participate/ignore the diiscussion. why are you asking for a closure? You are also trying to bring in ARR unnecessarily by talking about jodi or padaiappa! Lets not make this into another IR-ARR debate/fight!!
  
  
  
• From: Raja Fan (@ spider-tr072.proxy.aol.com) on: Thu May 6 18:44:33 EDT 1999
  
  Chandy and Shashi, many thanks in seeing into the matter of the topic. It is very rare that you see a MSV (thank him for not being dependent on ornate orchestration) so heavily loaded with difficult instrumental arrangements or interludes or rather multiple set of beats which keeps changing according to the character of the next melody line, very typical of IR but gone ad nauseum in most of his compositions in the 90s. I did not feel that kind of exhaustiveness and resulting exhaustion listening to his hundreds and hundreds of spontaneous numbers. About ARR, that is exactly what I found too, he had attempting to follow the classical MSV or pre-IR legacy in his greater numbers. IR knows what he is doing but he has lost that sublte touch or the gentle flow in his compositions. One of my Bengali friends, who happens to be a lover of Salil's music remarked that these days IR's melody lines are wanting (going back to Shashi's points on algorithmic composition) and the songs somehow sound crowded.
  
  
  

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