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Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: IR (@ 63.22.97.93) on: Tue Sep 19 19:29:04 EDT 2000
  
  MS - that G3 explanation was for Vidhya which would rule out gambeera naattai :)
  
  
• From: ravi68 (@ 64.20.105.249) on: Tue Sep 19 23:00:41 EDT 2000
  
  Thanks Vasu,Vidhya,IR and MS. I think IR is right with the point that its definetly not GNattai,it points to only srothaswini.But there is something different in the texture of the two songs-'SIndiya Venmani" and "O vasantharaja", is it on account of the usage of G3 in Sindhiya venmani,apart from G2?I dont see any d2 in O vasantha raaja........
  
  
• From: SL (@ 63.253.6.236) on: Wed Sep 20 03:18:39 EDT 2000
  
  ravi68, 'O vasantha raaja' touches D2 in the line preceding 'viN sorgamE poi' (I do not remember the words) like in Gowri Manohari. Therefore , if anything other than Srothaswini, it should be Gowri Manohari.
  'Sindiya veNmani' includes N2 (as opposed to N3, being a janya of Keeravani) and M2 as well in the line 'Yen uyir kaaviya naayaganE. Therefore it may sound like some raga of the nattai family at this point.
  Neither of the songs deviate from Srothasvini in the pallavi/anupallavi but involve different notes in the charanam.
  
  
• From: ravi68 (@ 216.67.96.110) on: Wed Sep 20 10:00:39 EDT 2000
  
  So SL/IR/MS/.....can we say
  1)that ruling out that D2 usage( I suppose its at"Mann thottadal..."), O Vasantharaaja is more Srothaswinish( to say so in IR's parlance)than "Sindhiya Venmani" ?
  2)Further meaning, "O vasantha raaja" has the Srothaswini signature of S G2 M1 P N3 S plus the anyaswara of D2( in the descent??)thereby being janya of say MK11- Kokilapriya?
  
  
  
• From: Vasu (@ 192.35.232.22) on: Wed Sep 20 10:51:01 EDT 2000
  
  I will look into the ragapravaham again today and find if there is raga that goes with srotasvini + d2. it has to be either under kokilapriya or gowri manohari.
  
  
• From: IR (@ 38.220.167.246) on: Wed Sep 20 10:53:16 EDT 2000
  
  I would still say that it is a janya of keeravani with anya notes... the usage of anya notes does not shift the parent raga... the parent should be determined by notes used predominantly and in this case Keeravani notes...
  
  
• From: IR (@ 38.220.167.246) on: Wed Sep 20 11:03:52 EDT 2000
  
  Coming to think of this... Vasu is right about Kokilapriya... Srothaswini should have technically been a janya of Kokilapriya... This is one of the exceptions to the rule where parent raga is determined by raga chaaya...
  
  
• From: MS (@ 165.166.44.19) on: Wed Sep 20 15:41:29 EDT 2000
  
  ravi - verdict ellaam perunthalaigaL like IR, RR, Vasu,SL thaan kodukkaNum :-)
  
  IR - once again parent raga discussion and raga chaaya concepts ? :-)
  
  Can you please explain what is the difference between "shruthi bEdham" and "graha bEdham" ? Also throw some light on Yeman kalyaan.
  
  
• From: Vasu (@ ) on: Wed Sep 20 16:33:30 EDT 2000
  
  MS:
  periya thalai ellam illappa. edho side-la naanum oodharen avvalavuthan :)
  
  For all practical purposes, we can conclude one or more of the following:
  
  1. O vasantha raja is Srotasvini + d2 touches
  2. IRaja knows or doesnot know about this
  3. Probably it is IRaja's manodharma (very possible, given his penchant and prolific adherence to mela 20 to 23. he might have dropped one or two notes and compose a nice melody)
  4. The singer unconsciously touches d2 despite IRaja's composition, which leads to all our discussions :)
  
  For theoretical purposes, im just listing some ragas resembling this A/a (with d2 included) in the order of most suitable:
  
  1. Manmagan (M11) (sgmpdnS;Sndpmgs)
  2. Payasvini (M11) (sgmpdnS;Sndpmgs)
  3. Vardhini (M11) (sgmpdnS;Spdpmgs)
  4. Kokila kamavardhini (M11) sgmpmndns;sndpmgs
  
  No janyas under Gowrimanohari (M23).
  
  MS:
  afaik, there is no bhedam betn sruthi bhedam and graha bhedam. both are same, just different terminology.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 165.166.44.19) on: Wed Sep 20 18:11:29 EDT 2000
  
  Vasu,
  O vasantha raja- srotasvini!! Cha, idhu thonaame poche;) I can now find some similiarities with 'sindhiya venmani sippikkul muthachu' the fact that it is not a commonly heard raga made it a bit difficult to identify the raga perhaps.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 165.166.44.19) on: Wed Sep 20 18:13:46 EDT 2000
  
  Vasu,
  if this is the case then is the song 'ennathaan sugamo' from mapillai anywhere close to srothasvini?
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 165.166.44.19) on: Wed Sep 20 18:15:38 EDT 2000
  
  also, what about pon vaanam panneer thoovuthu from indru nee naalai naan sung by SJ?
  
  
• From: Vasu (@ 192.35.232.13) on: Wed Sep 20 18:56:12 EDT 2000
  
  Vijay,
  Havent heard the song. Any links?
  
  
• From: ravi68 (@ 64.20.109.177) on: Wed Sep 20 21:31:22 EDT 2000
  
  MS ...U are very modest.. u expect them to give their verdict so that u will finally overrule it and have the last laugh..:-)Very smaart and you finally ask seemingly dumbo question on srutibedham!!!!!:-)
  
  Vasu..Add one more to ur list
  Vasantamalli S G2 M1 P N3 S - S D2 P M1 G2 S
  ,offcourse it omits N3 in the descent, just for interest. In ur list, Vardhani has N3 right?. I think we may regard the D2 as an aberration and rule in favor of Srothaswini.But are there any classical compositions in it?But my god...O Vasantha raaja itself a composition by itself right?
  
  And by the way what about " Illami ennum poongatru,padiyathu or pattu.."? Does it ring a bell?
  
  
• From: MS (@ 165.166.44.19) on: Wed Sep 20 23:15:04 EDT 2000
  
  ravi - cannot even imagine what you have said :-). Overruling ? hmmm sarithaan. You are not convinced that I am half baked. That is fine :-)
  
  
• From: g.v.nathan (@ 203.197.131.40) on: Thu Sep 21 09:25:13 EDT 2000
  
  may i know on which raga is 'sorgame endralum' from the film 'ooruvittu ooruvandhu' set (it is not hamsanadham)?
  
  
• From: ravi68 (@ 64.20.109.29) on: Thu Sep 21 10:12:16 EDT 2000
  
  MS..the "overruling.." part was a bit of a joke.Actually, i am so envious of the depth and raagagnana of u guys and if u are half baked then i am not even a novice!!!!Lets look forward for the final verdict...
  
  
• From: IR (@ 63.22.72.16) on: Thu Sep 21 11:00:31 EDT 2000
  
  MS.. ::) nee bekku nnu theriyum - half - baked too?? ::)) just kidding :)
  
  MS - to answer your ?s: I believe each person could have his/her own verdict :) which would probably be less controversial :)
  
  Graha/Shruthi/Swara Bedams are used synonymously ... In simple terms, it is a technique of shifting the tonic note of one raga(Aadhaara Shatjam) to another note and holding that note as the Aadhara Shatjam and using the notes of the intial raga as the following notes for the new raga that would be derived by this act... Most accomplished vidhwans do this in the middle of their concert to exhibit their talent and MLV and our beloved TNS are known for this :) (I think in Sruthi Bedam (another definition) you could shift another note besides the tonic note)
  
  Yaman/Yamuna kalyani/Yaman Kalyan are all similar if not the same ragas and are all janyas of Kalyani(65). They vary only in the sancharas although it is difficult to strictly lay down what Yaman/YK should take etc.. Yaman/Yaman Kalyan are Hindusthani ragas with more emphasis on deerga sanchaaras in swaras while yamuna kalyani, a carnaticised (! - my term) version of YK uses more sangathis and makes the raga a little heavier... You may want to listen to Dikshithar's Jambupathe to see how this raga could be made heavy :)
  
  One version of A/Avaro would be:
  Sa Ri2 Ga3 Pa Ma2 Pa Dha2 Ni3 Sa
  Av: Sa Ni3 dha2 Pa Ma2 Ga3 Ma1 Ri2 Sa
  
  IMO: Sorgame Endralum, Isayil Thodangudhamma and Thendral Vandhu Ennai thodu are all Hamsanadham plus a clear dha2... vasu.. could you look up and see if there is any raga like this?
  
  
  
• From: IR (@ 63.22.72.16) on: Thu Sep 21 11:02:18 EDT 2000
  
  Actually Yaman could be equated to our Kalyani :)
  
  
• From: IR (@ 63.22.72.16) on: Thu Sep 21 11:16:32 EDT 2000
  
  a note of caution on hamsanadham: (60 Neethimathi janya)
  
  There is a school of thought that says hamsanadham includes dha3
  
  While the commonly used Scale includes only Sa ri ma pa ni sa - sa ni pa ma ri sa
  
  
• From: MS (@ 165.166.44.19) on: Thu Sep 21 11:22:28 EDT 2000
  
  IR - I am just half bekkued :-)
  
  that aside, the reason qhy I asked you is to differentiate clearly between the following three:
  
  HK: Sa Ri2 Sa Pa Ma2 Pa Dha2 Ni3 Sa
  Sa Ni3 Dha2 Pa Ma2 Ma1 Ga3 Pa Ma1 Ri2 Sa
  
  Saaranga: Sa Ri2 Ga3 Ma2 Pa Dha2 Ni3 Sa
  Sa Ni3 Dha2 Pa Ma2 Ri2 Ga3 Ma1 Ri2 Sa
  
  YK:Sa Ri2 Ga3 Pa Ma2 Pa Dha2 Ni3 Sa
  Av: Sa Ni3 dha2 Pa Ma2 Ga3 Ma1 Ri2 Sa
  
  Yaman: Sa Ri2 G3 M2 P dha2 Ni3 Sa
  Sa Ni3 dha2 P M2 G3 Ri2 Sa
  
  ALl of these use tha same notes (except the M1 which come in the janyas) and sound very similar. Just wanted a clear cut definition of the ragas so that it may be possible for me to understand better.
  
  Dheerga sancharas - yeah yeah - Even I have heard that they go them well with saambaar:-)
  
  What are they any way ? :-)
  
  
• From: MS (@ 165.166.44.19) on: Thu Sep 21 11:22:48 EDT 2000
  
  typo go them = go
  
  
• From: SL (@ 208.49.174.40) on: Thu Sep 21 14:26:20 EDT 2000
  
  Vijay, 'pon vaanam..' is in Patdeep. This has been inspired by SD Burman's 'Megha Chchaaye aadhi raath bairan ban gayee....'. The charanam of this Hindi song has inspired the pallavi of 'pon vaanam' though it can never be termed as a copy.
  
  
• From: SL (@ 208.49.174.40) on: Thu Sep 21 14:26:53 EDT 2000
  
  ...and the Hindi song is also in Patdeep.
  
  
• From: SL (@ 208.49.174.40) on: Thu Sep 21 18:15:11 EDT 2000
  
  What is the raaga for the song 'Radha kaathal varaadha' in 'Naan avanillai'?
  
  
• From: Vidhya (@ 204.164.111.130) on: Thu Sep 21 18:35:37 EDT 2000
  
  Two more songs that sound similar to "Raadhaa.."
  "Naalaam naalaam thiru naaLaam".
  "Thendradhu unnidathil solli vaitha".
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221) on: Thu Sep 21 19:24:46 EDT 2000
  
  SL,
  2 questions. is there any carnatic equivalent of Patdeep and regarding this 'megha chaye' this sung came to me ina flash right now. i wanted to confirm whether what iam thinking is the right song. is this by Lata and what is the film?
  
  
• From: ravi68 (@ 64.20.109.10) on: Thu Sep 21 20:58:02 EDT 2000
  
  MS/IR...Please add Mishra Yaman too on that list requiring clarification.
  
  While discussing Hindi songs.. it reminds me..what is the base raaga of "Dil Hai Ki Maanta nahin..." in the film of the same name,available at
  http://www.musicindiaonline.com/cgi-bin/music.cgi?Mode=List&Code=XX01000304&a=sdiklg985kmfdsiumds98m
  
  

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