Does IR not deserve atleast a padma shri if MS can get Bharat ratna

Home Forum Wiki Notes Register FAQ Sitemap About Us Contact Us

Topic started by ashok (@ uswgco99.uswest.com) on Wed Jan 21 16:47:33 EST 1998.
All times in EDT/EST +9:30/10:30 for IST.

Responses:

From: Raja Mahadevan (@ draco.eisi.com) on: Wed Jan 21 17:33:55 EST 1998

Ashok,

That's true 200%. If one were to give MS a Bharat Ratna ( even though I personally like many other carnatic singers who are much more versatile and creative ), IR deserves more than 1 Bharat Ratna - Just for his creative use of Indian classical both Carnatic and Hindustani, Western Classic, Folk, forms of music to pleasure our senses for years to come.. I'll start wearing a helmet to avoid incoming scuds.

- Raja
From: SATHIYAVAGEESWARAN (@ client-151-200-126-111.bellatlantic.net) on: Wed Jan 21 21:11:41 EST 1998

I don't think a PADMASRI can honour his talents. An award should be created and it should be stopped once given to Raja and it can be named after Raja.

Padmasri is "Paththodu Pathinonnu" for Raja. Like Sivaji if at all they give they may give after 30 years. Let Raja not get it at all instead

As Raja Mahadevan said, it is very difficult to decide for which talent he should be given award!!!
From: Dev Mannemela (@ tide09.microsoft.com) on: Thu Jan 22 01:23:37 EST 1998

I think IR deserves a Padmashri (atleast), especially given that even Kamal Hassan got it
a while ago.

But this is really funny :-).

"An award should be created and it should be stopped once given to Raja and it can be named after Raja."

Nothing personal,
Sorry, But I am ROTFL here.
From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Thu Jan 22 09:36:35 EST 1998

Generally IMO, Awards given by governments are useless. Think of this MS shares the Bharat Ratna with MGR !

The leader of a ex-terrortist group Yasser Arafat gets the Nobel Peace Prize.

Mahatma Gandhi - founder of the non-violence movement is neither a Bharat Ratna or a Nobel Peace Prize recepient.

Padma Shri, Padma Bhushan, Padma Vibushan are quite useless awards and the public does not care about these awards. People know about Padmashri awarded to Kamal bcos he chooses to adverise it.

An award is only as good as the people it is awarded to. To think MGR won the National award for best acting but Sivaji never won it says much about the award.
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Thu Jan 22 22:40:24 EST 1998

PG

I second your opinion. There are many such examples. These awards have now become an insult to the individual rather than a praise.
From: MS_fan (@ bones.deneb.com) on: Fri Jan 23 02:48:38 EST 1998

NO Arvind:
Just because an award is given to one person
it insults the others - theroy is wrong.
We don't know what are all the categories
involved in making a selection.
If HUMANE thing is involved, IR won't score
much on that. MS really deserves BRatna more
than anybody in Indian Music. She has been
praised by Gandhi, Nehru (Gandhi-ai kan kalanga
vaikkum aLavu nalla pAdi irukkAnga).
Karnatic musicai ulagam aRinthu koLLa vaithathu
MSthan. She was recognized as one of the
prominent musician by United Nations. All the
money she makes from royalty has been going to
charity for 40 years.

But definietely IR deserves a Padmashri.

Dev:
I agree with you completely about the funny
saying (SV romba uNarchy vasap pattuvittAr!!)
From: karthik (@ 207.78.88.252) on: Fri Jan 23 17:35:34 EST 1998

This is thamizhan's alpa budhi. you guys wont feel
proud about MS getting an award but would carp
about why Mr.X was not given one. Rather you
would try to demean the award as well as the awarded person
From: Rajesh (@ pdxss902.jf.intel.com) on: Fri Jan 23 20:58:42 EST 1998

Karthik,

Who said anything about not being proud that MS got an award? Just discussing about why IR is not
recognized. Why do u have to talk about being Tamizhan, telugan and all that stuff. No body here
looks at IR or MS as a tamizhan but as music people. Your perception of Tamizhan getting an award instead of musician getting an award is very
disappointing
From: Srikanth (@ 29.minneapolis-06.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Sat Jan 24 23:57:11 EST 1998

Hi,

This Topic is utter non-sense. MS's experiance in Carnatic music is much more than IR's age.

First of all, She is a carnatic musician,
Her voice is international, many foriegn insitutions know her very well.
She has performed all over the World in many languages.
This award is infact been delayed. Should have been given 5 years ago.

No way anyone can compare MS and Raja achivements.MS's is always much much more.

One should view these awards in Country's perspective.I dont think just 600+ Tamil movies will fetch a Bharat Ratna. A north Indian will knows MS more than IR., Raja fans draw a circle around and talk the same thing.They dont want to come out of it.

Viku Vinakaram only Tamilian to win a Grammy!,
so start a topic When Viku can get Grammy - IR should get an Oscar or (introductory) noble price.

IR fans are still blind...(some are deaf),

One person has told all the Indian Awards are useless -

National Anthem will not loose its value because if a polititian sings it.

MS - Sharing with MGR - The standard of the award will never go down because of the Awardee.
It is a proud moment in ones life to get these awards.

Srikanth
From: vijay (@ 129.252.29.214) on: Sun Jan 25 01:17:08 EST 1998

perhaps, the topic can be rephrased as
"if kamal can get padmashri , why not IR?"
which i feel is more reasonable.because if service is considered as one of the main criteria,
then IR has done much more than kamal.after all he is the first indian if not asian composer to be invited for composing a symphony.he has given innumerable no. of melodies and has pleased audience thru the years.also one's background has to be considered.kamal was apparently from a better placed family than IR
and for IR to get his first film itself he had to struggle a lot.wheras kamal got his chance in kalathur kannamma by luck.iam not bringing down kamal's achievments nor saying that he is not worth a padmasri.iam a fan of his acting abilities.

but since the award for MS was delayed by 10 to 15 years should IR also be given an award
only when he is 80 and about to die?as sivaji told ,awards should be given when the artistes are at their peak and sivaji himself was not very thrilled in getting the national award(dadasahebphalke?) since he felt he should have got it long back.and even in IR's case london has recognized him already whereas india is yet to recognize.

vijay
From: pg (@ client-116-13.bellatlantic.net) on: Sun Jan 25 08:51:06 EST 1998

Mr. Srikanth :

Please do not twist my words : I never said Indian Awards are useless. I said that awards by governments are useless. Most of the time these awards are politically motivated.

While I agree entirely that MS is worthy of Bharat Ratna, it is my opinion that Bharat Ratna is honoured by giving it to people like MS.

Receiving or not receiving an award is no indication of a person's greatness. MS will be remembered whether or not she receives an award and so will IR's music.

You think 50 years from now, people care that MS won a Bharat Ratna ? People will listen to MS if they like MS's music. Ditto for IR.

You think that standard of the awards do not go down because of the awardee ? Think again : great people from all walks of life have refused awards because the awards were not given in the right spirit. Several instances in India's own Sahitya Academy & Gnana Peeda awards are testimony to that.
From: SATHIYAVAGEESWARAN (@ client-151-200-125-76.bellatlantic.net) on: Sun Jan 25 11:17:02 EST 1998

Neither MS nor IR can be honoured simply by giving these awards. Achievement of either is phenomenal. Since awards are mostly given on political grounds, these sort of debates arise. MS has achieved everything long back. Had the awards be genuine they should have been given long back.
Balke award was given to Sivaji after atleast 25 years he would have come to the state of deserving it. Sivaji has done most of his achievements even before 1970. Why the award is given in 1996?
Ilayaraja may not be given any award at all. He has been focussed by "Anantha Vikatan" that he is India's "ISAI ADAIYALAM".
Ilayaraja has got enough accolades. He got the endorsement from the people. That is sufficient.
"MAKKAL THEERPPE MAHESAN THEERPPU"
From: Madhan (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Sun Jan 25 11:30:56 EST 1998

Friends ,

AWARDS in India - this subject is a very comic one.

Until the year 1990, the only superstars that we knew of Indian films other than S.Indian ones, were Amitabh Bachchan and co. But once newspapers started to heavily write about Satyajit Ray, we came to KNOW about somebody by this name . And only after the OSCAR was conferred on him, did he get some sensational coverage. Even now his works are unexplored by a majority of our media.

Shivaji Ganesan , a doyen , a phenomenon, got recognised by the French govt. which went to the extent of reinstating the Chevalier Award only to honor him !! WHAT A GREAT TRIBUTE !! Then comes the Dadha Sahab Phalke award.

Ilayaraaja - let us not break our heads about awards coming to him or not - we know the truth , right, so why get worked up ? Let me quote the words of an American musicologist on Ilayaraaja

" This man's music will be heard throughout the world by the 21st Century " - these words are printed on the cassette cover of NOTHING BUT WIND.

Talking of awards - Amitabh was given a national award for his performance in the movie
" AGNEEPATH " - I saw this movie - I am sorry, frankly speaking I didn't observe anything worthy enough in that movie for Amitabh to have been given that award - so that is the status of awards in India.
From: pg (@ client-116-123.bellatlantic.net) on: Sun Jan 25 19:09:08 EST 1998

Mr. Srikanth :

What exactly do you mean by 'First of all, She is a carnatic musician' ?

If you claim that MS is superior to IR because she is a carnatic musician and IR is not, I can only pity your arrogance. Carnatic music is only a system and as such is neither inferior nor superior to any other system of music. It is neither superior nor inferior to say gangsta rap from Bronx. Carnatic musicians who mug up a few keerthanas composed some two hundred of years ago and deliver that in front of a few hundred people think they are superior to all other forms of music.

Mr. Srikanth : you are both blind and deaf I think. Forget Mylapore and Mandaveli how many people in OttEri know about MS ? How many people in so many pattis around TN know about MS ? How many people in so many villages across UP and MP and Bihar and Rajasthan know about MS ? North India is not upper caste Delhi.

I am aware that MS is probably the most respected singer in India now but there are millions of people of India who neither know nor care about MS. I know there are people in TN (read Mylapore, Mandaveli, RA Puram) who go into raptures at MS's voice but I personally cannot stand her singing. And I do not need any advice on my musical taste, Mr.Srinakth. If you have any advice please deliver them to your carnatic musicians - first tell them to improve their pronounciation, MS included.

MS is after all a singer, IR is a composer and a creator. singathu vAlAi iruppadhai vida elikku thalaiyai iruppadhu mEl.
From: Raja M (@ draco.eisi.com) on: Mon Jan 26 09:53:41 EST 1998

I liked the reference to Mandaveli/Mylapore, I have my roots there. The whole area "reeks" of culture .

I would rate creative musicians a shade higher than performers.. So IR's contribution to music deserves recognition.

-Raja
From: RajaM (@ draco.eisi.com) on: Mon Jan 26 10:16:38 EST 1998

What I meant was creative composers ( who have the necessary background in classical music, giving them a good base to build on) contribute more to popularising music more than singers .

As far as Mandaveli/Mylapore goes, my comments do not mean other places are better or worse. Especially Otteri diehards..

Raja
From: T.Madhan (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Mon Jan 26 11:19:40 EST 1998

Dear PG,

SHABAASH !! NANDRAAGA sonneergal - NETHHI ADI !!

Indha Carnatic music THERIYUM yengira arrogance thaan, namma kalaachaarathhai sinnaa pinamaakiyadhu - patti thottiyil kooda,
IR's " Oru kanam oru yugamaaga " from Nadodi Thendral is famous - this song is based on MOHANA raagam - to have taken carnatic music to all levels in the society, IR needs a better deal.

This is for Srikanth and his likes : PLEASE NO OFFENCES INTENDED -

The basis of all kinds of music Carnatic, Hindustani, Jazz, Rap or anything , their origin lies in thr rural countryside - if the music one gives cannot reach the appreciative ears of the uneducated rural mass, then no point in giving a virtuoso performance in ALwarpet's Satguru Gyanananda Hall, or Kamaraj Memorial Hall, where a bunch of snobbish, rich affluent so-called upper middle class, aristocratic intellectuals sit and shake their heads whether they have understood the music or not - tell me how many of the so-called carnatic vidhwans have the dedication to understand the meaning of the carnatic keerthanais and then sing ?

1 * 1 = 1 , 2 * 3 = 6 - idha maadhiri dabbaa adichhu medaiyil oppippadharkku peyar sangeetham kidaiyaadhu . For that matter, even the great Maharajapuram Santhanam has been criticised often for showing callous approach in singing.

Thalaiyai aaattum puriyaadha koottamm ketpadharku mattum isaiyai koduppavargalai vida ,
" Serikkum sera venum, adhukkum paattu padi " yendru thunichhaludan paattu padichaarey Gyani , avar yevvalavo mel.

DO NOT SLANDER NON - CARNATIC MUSICIANS - TELL ME IN WHAT WAY IS PUSHPAVANAM KANDHASWAMY INFERIOR TO ANY OF THE KUDUMI BHAGAVADHARS ?

" Amman kovil kizhakkaley, anna vayal merkaaley,

namma vooru naduvaaley nikkudhadi, adiyey, naattu sanam namma kandu sokkudhadi "

- indha pattil ulla man vasanai, the rustic innocence and the natural ambience is on par with Milton's poetry or Shakespeare's materpieces . The song " Idhayam pogudhey , yenaiyey pirindhey " and " Puthham pudhu kaalai " both are perfect relections of William Wordsworth's
" The Solitary Reaper ".

Mr.PG, I am with you- keep it up.
From: karthik (@ 207.78.88.252) on: Mon Jan 26 12:56:43 EST 1998

As the saying goes, "comparisons are always odious". If IR has the ability to compose music then MS has the ability to sing any composition in a divine voice. If Mr. PG says he cant stand MS's voice then I cant stand "nethu rathiri yamma" from IR.
From: Amar (@ worf.qntm.com) on: Mon Jan 26 14:19:22 EST 1998

Madhan, unarchivasappattu, "Pushpavanam Kuppusamy"yai "Kandasamy"yaakivittergal. Athai yaaraavathu kaaranam solli ungalakku yaaraippatri pesuroam yenbathey theriyavillai yenrellaam kaarangalai solli ungal vaathathai thisai thiruppuvatharkku munnaal Yennudaiya correctionai yetrukkollungal.

Aagamotham onru purigirathu, "Vallavanukku Pullum Aayutham; Antha Vallavanakku FULLaaga IR kedaithuvittaal, yaarkooda vendumaanaalum compare panni pesuvaargal yenbathai Theevira-IR-fans meendum niroobhikkinranar"

Romba personal levelil yaaraiyum thithaamal vivaathiyungal - good luck to both sides!
From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Mon Jan 26 15:19:40 EST 1998

First a few thoughts to put things in perspective :
-------------------------------------------------
What we call music is a infinitesimal part of what we define as sound and what we mere humanscan hear properly in only about 15000 Hz. The persons we regard/worship as great singers, composers are all engaged in tricks in this miniscule, insignificant spectrum.
---------------------------
Nobody is above criticism. Not IR, not MS, not Beethoven, not Lord Krishna, not Lord Rama, not Jesus Christ.
---------------------------
There is no such thing as objective reality 'out there'. If MS sings where there is no one to hear her, does she sound rapturous ? If IR composes music where there is no one to play his compositions let alone anobody to hear them is the music divine ? If there is nobody to witness the universe does the universe exist ?

Reality is a product of the interaction between the observer and the observed. Our interaction with the outside world is through our senses. What I say is not necessarily what you hear.

The whole world is mAyA; so what are we fighting over here ?
---------------------------

Now back to TFM :

1. I have explicitly acknowledged that many people consider MS's voice to be divine. All I am saying that there are people like me who find no pleasure in her music. And whether you like it or not is a fact.
2. Comparisons are mostly useless but they are inevitable part of everyday life. Just look around and comparisons abound in every aspect of life.
3. In my postings I have never said MS never deserved a Bharat Ratna. Or that IR deserved one. Frankly, I give a damn.
The question was a simple one : If MS can get a Bharat Ratna, does not IR deserve at least a Padma Shri ? Is this comparing IR to MS ? To me this sounds : Has not IR achieved enough (in his chosen field) to deserve a Padma Shri ? If anybody interprets that differently please let me know.
4. If you say MS is a better musician, it your opinion and I respect it. But if you say that MS is a better musician because MS is a carnatic musician and IR is a filmy musician, you are living in a fool's paradise. Classical music around the world and especially in India remains an exclusive realm of the snobby rich. No amount of internationalism or awards will make it popular music. The impact popular music around the world has on people's lives, classical music cannot even dream about that type of impact.
5. I am a great fan of Beethoven's music but one of my close friends hated Beethoven. His reason : Beethoven being deaf wrote loud music which he himself couldn't hear ! Obviously while being friends, he wasn't listening to Beethoven the same way I did. If I get more pleasure from listening to Pushpavanam Kuppusamy's music than listening to MS (and I do), PK is better than MS. My reality is different from your reality. And both are equally valid views of the world from the point of the observer. MS & IR do not even exist in a large number of these worlds and occupy varying degrees of importance in others. And all are equally valid. Anything can be compared to anything and the result can be anything and be quite valid from the point of the observer.
From: SATHIYAVAGEESWARAN (@ client-151-200-126-253.bellatlantic.net) on: Mon Jan 26 19:46:19 EST 1998

No doubt, MS is one of the all time best singers. But can we call her a musician? IR and MS can never be compared. IR is a creator and MS is one of the best singers who could sing all those keerthanas.
There is always an ego probllem with the people who like carnatic and who perform carnatic. They feel whatever they deem to be divine are overshadowed by Cine songs. Both are different versions of music. When you normalise both versions of music to a common reference or scale, IR has done more services to music than any other Carnatic musician who got such awards.
If MS were given the award without any partiality exclusively on musical grounds,then on such grounds IR deserves more than what those awards really mean. Probably IR may not be known all over India. But he has done service to 6 crore people in Tamilnadu for more than 15 years. Definitely the number of people who were mesmorised by Ilayaraja in Tamilnadu is more than the people addicted by MS all over India. If MS' service is a credibility to the entire India, then definitely IR crossed that domain. He is the first to compose a symphony in Asia. So he gave credibility to the entire Asia. Even some people from carnatic will come and argue that symphony is inferior to carnatic. There is no end to such debates.
Music does not belong to any particular group. When carnatic musicians realize this and drop their ego, they will appreciate Raja's service. But that won't happen. They will never give up their ego, and they will always criticise all other versions of music.
While IR's music can penetrate into the ears of Carnattic people, their music is still far away from lay man. So problem is with their music, and not IR.
Also they can criticise IR if he does not know carnatic. He went to the extent of being requested by Music Academy to start the december season by singing first. He may not be a good singer. But he knows carnatic on par with any best carnatic performer. This is accepted by Semmangudi and Balamurali openly. Who else have to certify IR's talent?
Again I reiterate that, MS deserves more than what this award really means. But still she has been honoured on other grounds. Awards are given by politicians, not by musicians. IR will not be given such awards at all. No regrets, he already won the people's verdict. That is sufficient for us.
From: srikanth (@ 172.minneapolis-06.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Mon Jan 26 22:16:01 EST 1998

hi Friends,

Mr. Pg I cannot get you! , your rage is just against me as I have said something against your Idol (belive it or not , mine also) RAJA.

It slowy turned towards carnatic music, with applause from other IR fans.

One's popularity does not fetch any award,
Raja is known in patti thotis of tamil nadu,
that does not form a criteria for any award.

I put MS AS CARNATIC MUSICIAN BECAUSE YOU CANNOT COMPARE A CARNATIC MUSICIAN AND FILM COMPOSER.
CAN YOU COMPARE A FOOT BALL PLAYER WITH A BASKETBALL PLAYER - they are different in their talents., THE ONLY COMMON THING IS THE BALL!, IN MUSIC IT IS THE NOTES,

RAJA FANS CANNOT DEMAND SAYING IF MS IS GIVEN WHY NOT RAJA GET - It it breaks the hearts of MS FANS,
Like your heart which is hot now because I said few strong words, Every action has equal and oppostite reaction.

One more thing - AWARDS HAS TO COME NOT GOT THROUGH ASKING.

WHY RAJA FOR EVERY THING,
WHY DOES RAJA FANS DEMAND EVERY LITTLE THINGS OTHERS GET DUE TO THEIR HARD WORK.

One thing about carnatic music, words put against carnatic music cannot bring the greatest art in world. It is the most structured form of music. You can become a film musician over night, but to become a carnatic musician it is hard.
Do you know Raja's ambition, SPB's ambition
- Raja wanted to do a carnatic concert - he did it, Same with SPB but has not done it yet!.

Dont get angry on Carnatic music because of my heated words, I have told about Raja's fans and not Raja.
They are always against people who critisies Raja, they dont see the mistakes, I can pin point timing mistakes in Raja's songs,
I am also a great fan for Raja I love his score...
No one is perfect.
MS HAS GOT THE AWARD ACCEPT IT AND DONT THROW STONES ON MS AND CARNATIC MUSIC...

THANKS FOR THE THE COMPLEMENT :
PEOPLE LIKE SRIKANTH - HAS SPOILT THE CULTURE HAVING ARROGANCE IN CARNATIC MUSIC.
thanks for accepting me a carnatic musician , I am trying to learn the music for past 29years. (I was born in 68).

"
where a bunch of snobbish, rich affluent so-called upper middle class, aristocratic intellectuals sit and shake their heads whether they have understood the music or not - tell me how many of the so-called carnatic vidhwans have the dedication to understand the meaning of the carnatic keerthanais and then sing ?"

Above is a childish talk
It proves you ignorance not only in carnatic music also your music knowledge.
All the film music in TFM is based on Carnatic Ragas, Talam's etc...
your's is 100% Vithanda vadam

I DONT KNOW HOW A CARNATIC MUSIC OR MUSICIAN OR A CARNATIC MUSIC FAN CAN SPOIL COUNTRIES CULTURE...

"IR FANS ENNAI DHARMATHU ADHEEKARANGA:

Srikanth
From: IR_writing_GRE (@ bones.deneb.com) on: Tue Jan 27 02:29:35 EST 1998

Srikanth:
Hang in there, with vizupuN.
ippidi pOchEnu varuthathudan nethiya
adikirathum NETHTHI ADIthAn!!

Others:

The discussion has taken a tangential turn.
Srikanth's opinion that "MS has achieved more than IR"
is NOT accetable to few.
IMO, I ACCEPT SRIKANTH'S STATEMENT. She deservs the
award more than IR.

All that comments about Karnatic music/musicians/listeners
look irrelevent for the topic. But I would like to mention
few things:

Whatever said about KM listened by snobbish,
rich-affluent people is MUCH MORE APPROPRIATE for the
SYMPHONY listeners. (It id only for "House of Lords")

MS made the foriegners listen and appreciate the
Indian music but IR made them listen to their own music.
What MS did is like make them read the ThirukkurAl.
What IR did is like scoring highest in GRE/GMAT
(in their own exam).
Which one do you think is more difficult ?

Some times the politics play a role in giving awards
BUT NOT ALWAYS - and definitely it didn't play a role
in giving it to MS and NOT giving it to IR.

IR deserves a Padmashri (IMO) but it is given to Mandalin
Srinivasan & Mammutty - looks like the current UN-POLITICed
selection committee seems to have different set of
rules & regulations.

VELLAIKARAN PARATTU PETRAL ATHU PERIYA VISHAYAMA POCHU!!!
From: Anand Mahadevan (@ 172-117-134.ipt.aol.com) on: Tue Jan 27 08:29:03 EST 1998

Guys,
I would like to pitch in a few points.There is no comparing MS and IR.Its like comparing apples and oranges.One cannot judge somebody's achievment by a factor of time.IR's time span
cannot be compared with MS.Here we are talkin about qualitative achievment.In terms of sheer artistic creativity MS stands way back.with all due respect to her abilities,she is definetly not a top line carnatic muscican even in her peak.This could be cross checked with many a carnatic purist.She has great voice but her musical knowledege his very ordinary.I might be starting a wave of reaction on this but she could be compared to yesudas.
Yesudas draws huger crowds and has performed all over the world but if u ask any carnatic purist he is way down the list.Glamour always plays a part.I feel its IR pr which let him down.In terms of sheer creativity and quantitative achievment IR should be given if not a Bharat ratna atleast an an order of merit.
Well,thats India for starters and thats how we view life.Its charisma and glamour which take precedence to artistic pursuits.
Thanks
Anand Mahadevan
From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Tue Jan 27 09:57:58 EST 1998

Dear Mr.Srikanth,

I am an ignoramus, a deaf and blind IR-fan who knows nothing about Ragas and Thalams and sruti and scale changes. Please forgive me for my ignorant comments.

1. MS, I have very categorically said is worthy of the award. She has sung at Lincoln Center, United Nations which no other Indian musician has done. She has much to charity, much much more than any Indian musician. But she remains a public performer and she is open to criticism. Take away all the public trappings, music remains just sound till it is translated in the mind of the listener. Translations are never perfect and quite large variations are possible. While one hears hypnotic beauty in the patterns created by Philip Glass's music, another sees mindless repetition of an uncreative mind. Both are equally correct. While you hear beauty in MS's voice I hear mispronounciation in her singing. While I accept your judgement why is it difficult for you to accept
mine ?
I consider myself an IR-fan but IR is not above criticism. I have junked IR's music here in this DF and as long-timers would know I even coined a term for some of IR's music : thagara dappa music.

2. Do I have anything against you ? No.
Do I have anything against MS ? No. MS is an accomplished singer in the carnatic system of music.
Do I have anything against carnatic music ? No. Carnatic music is just a system of music.

Do I have anything against carnatic musicians who think they are superior because they are carnatic musicians ? Yes I do.

I have very clearly said that I do not consider carnatic music superior or inferior to any other form of music. I listen to a lot of music : carnatic (!), western classical(from Beethoven to Lukas Foss and Steve Reich), western pop/rock, African drumming (Babatunde Olatunji), Jazz (from John Coltrane/Wes Montgomery/Theolonius Monk to Keith Jarrett/Pat Metheny) and I do not consider any form music any better or worse than any other form of music.

Ironically, IR himself considers carnatic music to be the greatest form of music (as he 'proved' this to the French Musician Paul Mauriat - IR's first book 'sangeethak kanavugal'). This from a man who considers music itself as a fraud and music is 'Nothing But Wind'.

3. As for rich snobby audience for classical music : All I say is watch the crowd outside Music Academy during the music season. Or watch the tuxedo-ed fashionable crowd outside Lincoln Center or Metropolitan Opera House in NY. And yes, it is true even for IR's symphony.

4. If there is one thing I agree wholeheartedly with you : awards cannot be demanded. IR's fans cannot insult IR more. You cannot start a campaign demanding Kamal take IR for Marudanayagam. What an insult for IR !

5. Obviously you have learnt music from the moment you were born. (born on 1968 - learnt music for 29 years).
I was also born in 1968 but I am not that gifted. I had to study, get degrees, get a job and in the midst of all this all I could do was to listen to some music.
From: Madhan (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Tue Jan 27 12:07:52 EST 1998

Dear Amar,
Thanks for the correction - yes, it is Pushpavanam Kuppuswamy and not P.Kandaswamy - yennai mannithhuvidungal !!

DEAR SRIKANTH ,

Nanbaa Vanakkam ! umakkum yenakkum yezhaam poruthham ! Adhu yenna, yenakko music knowledge arai kurai - I am not well versed with classical or any form of music - yedho, three - four years back, Hindustani classical katrukkondadhu yen baakkiyam - academics thaduthhuvittadhu - sari matterukku varuvom -

DID I CLAIM THAT IR BE GIVEN BHARAT RATNA ?

NO, NOT ALL - IR ukku yendha vidhamaaana awardum vendaamaiyyaa - Sathya avargal sonnadhu pol ," makkal theerpey magesan theerpu " - naam anaivarum ippadi sandai poduvadhu IR ukkay therindhaal, even he will feel embarassed .

I was only trying to defend the millions who either do not have the gift to comprehend carnatic music , or have been denied the oppurtunity to know the same . Yevvalavu casual aaga music theriyaadhavargal, therindhavargal yendru inam pirikkum pazhakkam nammaiyum thotrikollakkoodaadhu yendra bayathhinaal thaan naan avvaaru koorinaen.
From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Tue Jan 27 14:13:24 EST 1998

Hello Where is Ashok - the puNNiyanan who started this topic ?
From: Srikanth (@ 200.minneapolis-06.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Tue Jan 27 21:14:35 EST 1998

Dear friends,
After reading all you comments...
I am closing my side on this because I happened to be Raja's fan at the same time I am loyal to Music..
Others also do work hard - that is my point,
I am the tinyest of tiny particle in the music industry, when I was India I use to go office
in morning and be in the recording studio from 9 in the night to next day morning. this was just to do an adverstisement track ---
I have do such a hard work for a small 20 second score, imagine the others who does music to movies etc....a real hard work...
Thats why I always get on every one who compares musicians WITHOUT KNOWING HOW HARD THEY WORK.

Fame is not just got in Target stores or Wall mart
--->it is 100%hard work MS has done lot of hard in the past years- she has got it. this does not justify an award for Raja or anyone for that matter.
Why Indian Govt. did not honour Raja - this is the topic we need discuss I will back you up with many points....
Right now this topic has taken a turn towards something....

Bye for now , meet you all soon in another hot suff.....

Special Hi to Madan - Long time no C(or C++)

Srikanth
From: Arun chander (@ m24.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Thu Feb 5 08:15:42 EST 1998

Hi,

I think the title of this thread is itself very wrong.what do you
mean by when you say " doesn't IR deserve a padmashri if MS gets a
bharatratna ".I whole-heartedly agree that IR deserves much more than a padmashri.
but why make MS the scapegoat in your search for recognition to IR?

MS is the greatest singer/humanbeing of our times.
may be there are more carnatic music singers knowledgable than her.
but do you know what is the ultimate aim of carnatic music? it is to
spread bhakti.There can never be a singer who conveys the bhakti
rasa more than MS.she has donated lakhs and lakhs of money for charity
which shows her selflessness and non-commercialisation of music.
It is a pity that while even foriegners are generous in their praise for
her we indians are not united on this issue (nambe entha vishiyathila thaan
otrumaiai irunthirukom!!).

To say that IR is greater than MS becos he
is a creator of music is an absurd argument.Take the following case :
Lata Mangeshkar has sung 30,000 songs but hasn't composed any till now.
Now consider a ordinary hindi film music director who has " created "
about 100 songs.does it mean that the Music director is greater than
Lataji because he has created 100 songs while lataji has not?
Each and every person has talent in a different field.so comparing
these two is totally absurd.If all creators are that much talented
then why don't they sing their own songs??

Music is saptha swarangal.At the root level
every music is combination of seven notations. every form of music
has its own speciality.so don't try to argue whether carnatic music is greater
or film music is greater.

so let us all whole-heartedly appreciate
the govt's decision to award Bharatratna to MS and hope IR gets his due
soon.

comments welcome.
From: krish (@ sb-fw1-ny.i11.advantis.net) on: Thu Feb 5 18:52:09 EST 1998

I have watched this debate and other such on Ilayaraaja. My feeling on this is we in India do not realize how fortunate we are to have this musical genius in our midst, in our time and still gving us incomparable music. I see things written such as how his music is no the same in the 90s which is a baloney.

I think if Ilayaraaja was born in the West, he would have gotten the rich accolades he deserves. Or may be, subservient to the powers to be in India.

I don't think not getting an award is going to take anything away from his greatness in the long run. It just shows how much we in India are unaware of a rare gem in our midst.
From: Nithin Sreedevan (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Sun Feb 8 15:39:06 EST 1998

My Dear Brothers and Sisters: (All Indians are my Brothers and Sisters) Peace. Om Shathi, Om.

Each of the arguments above are put forth in its own perspective, directed by rigid view, beliefs and a protective nature about them. A few years ago, I would have told that IR should have been given the Bharat Ratna at the time of his birth (is there a antonym for Posthumously?)

Today, have gone through difficult emotional experiences, I have begun to appreciate Carnatic Music, which I once disdained. The music brings within me a great sense of religiousity, devotion, peace and a deep awe for music , the way it should be heard. However, not everyone reaches a stage in their life, when they feel that high level of appreciation for things so profound, cultivated, clear and limitless as Carnatic Music. When Raja, once said that Carnatic Music is the highest level attained in Music, I could not agree. Of course, his experiences were very different from mine or the general public.

MS Subbulakshmi, has kept the Carnatic Music System alive. That is why she has been given the Bharat Ratna. We have many art forms which are dying because there are no dedicated artistes to keep them alive in the minds of people. For example, Kathakkali, Mohini Yatta, the Yakshaganam, folk dances and so on. We need to give Bharat Ratna to such people who will keep our age-old values alive.

About MGR having received the Bharat Ratna, one must see his movies once again. What is so special about him. In my opinion, there is no one in this world , whose appeal and affections flow from the heart and his calm mind as is did from MGR. Why he has conquered the hearts of the people, is because of his pure nature and his divine presence. See his movies again. If you appeal to the minds and hearts of the poor, then there is nothing more that you need to yearn for in life.

Sivaji Ganesha deserves two Bharat Ratnas, so does IR for his immaculate contribution to Indian film music, by making popular Tamizh folk music, more than he has done for popularising Carnatic Music. The infininte number of folk songs he has composed is enough for us all to live without fresh ari and water!

A few other artistes, whom I think deserve the Government's highes awards are MSV, Salil Chowdhury, G Devarajan, Hemant Kumar, Prem Nazir, Manorama, Adoor Bhasi, Nagesh, Sirgazhi Govindarajan, SVRanga Rao, TMS, Bharathi Raja, Kaviarasu Kannadasan, Vairamuthu, Vayalar and so on.

Don't you all agree?
From: vizippu (@ bones.deneb.com) on: Mon Feb 9 02:06:35 EST 1998

Nitin:

Two days back I would have accepted your list of artists who deserves Bharat Ratna,
but aftre reading last weekend Hindu which listed all the Barat Ratnas:

Sir. CV Raman
Dr. RadhaKrishnan
Rajaji
Jawaharlal Nehru
Lalbagadur Sastri
Mother Teressa
MGR (as a politician)
Surdar vallabai patel (surprisingly given after MGR)
Rabindaranath Tagore
sarojini Naidu
Indira Gandhi
vinoba
Jayaprakash Narayan
Math Maestro Ramanujan

I don't think Kannadasan, MSV, Sivaji fits into the above list to get a Barat Ratna (no need to mention IR).
Looks like BR is meant for something other then just the contribution to some local language
music/art.
From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Thu Feb 12 09:26:51 EST 1998

A letter to the Editor in Hindu (12-Feb-1998)
---------------------------------------------

Bharat Ratnas

Date: 12-02-1998 :: Pg: 12 :: Col: d

Sir, - This refers to the box item listing the recipients of the Bharat Ratna award and the article adjoining it (TheHindu, Feb. 8). Out of the 31 awardees, politicians take the cake with 18, scientists and technologists three, educationists and philosophers four, fine arts (including MS) two and industrialists only one (JRD Tata).

As the author of the article has rightly pointed out, these awards are for the politicians, by the politicians, and their henchmen for reasons well known to all right-thinking people. One does not grudge political mandarins getting for themselves not only unlimited wealth but prestigious awards as well. But let them also condescend to bestow these awards on outstanding personalities, who in the opinion of the common people have done much more constructive work for the welfare of society. For instance, but for the duo - Mr. C. Subramaniam and Dr. M. S. Swaminathan - the Green Revolution would not have brought us self-sufficiency on the food front. And Dr. Kurien and Dr.Sam Pitroda brought about the White Revolution and the Telecom Revolution.
Why should such doyens be denied the honour?

R. Ranganathan, Tiruchirappalli
From: raja m (@ draco.eisi.com) on: Thu Feb 12 10:28:10 EST 1998

Pg:

From the article, it appears that other than MS the other recipient was Tagore for art /music/poetry. I am still not clear if MS given the award for her music / charities or personality ?

Can anyone throw a tubelight on why Sarojini Naidu got it ? Was she a poet ? What were her composititions?

.
From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Thu Feb 12 11:15:32 EST 1998

Sarojini Naidu was a poet & if I am sure she was also involved in politics. I have read only one poem of hers - catamaran - which I read in school.
From: Ravi (@ hope.cs.umass.edu) on: Thu Feb 12 11:40:03 EST 1998

Nitin: Are we talking about the 'Dada sAhEb PalkhE' award or BR?
From: Nithin Sreedevan (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Fri Feb 13 01:58:07 EST 1998

Vizippu and Ravi:

Just got a little emotional on the issue of the Bharat Ratna. What I mean to say is, the Government needs to bestow the Padma Bhushan or higher upon the various artistes I have mentioned. I know Prem Nazir has received one, probably more so because of his donations to the Congress elections in Kerala.

I am telling you that the artistes mentioned have contributed so much to bring awareness ot the popular side of the various aspects of our great ancient culture. That, while they are serving popular culture, they are also really profound in their interpretation of the classical dimensions of the facets our culture.

So, there is no denigration of the stature of the highest honor of the land, if the honor is bestowed on great artistes, who are more usually involved in keeping the common man happy, while they do not really serve classical arts, these artistes do present the classical arts in a manner appealing to the more popular imagination,
From: Amit Garg (@ d708.pppdel.vsnl.net.in) on: Tue Apr 14 03:55:21 EDT 1998

can you please provide us the address of all the awardies of bharat ratna and padma vibhusna awards of this year anounced on 12th of april 1998

we want to congratulate them

List all pages of this thread

Post comments

Sections: Home - TFM Magazine - Forum - Wiki - POW - oPod - Lyrics - Pictures - Music Notes -
Forums: Current Topics - Ilayaraja Albums - A.R. Rahman Albums - TFM Oldies - Fun & Games
Ilaiyaraja: Releases - News - Share Music - AR Rahman: Releases - News - AOTW - Tweets -
Discussions: MSV - YSR - GVP - Song Requests - Song stats - Raga of songs - Copying - Tweets
Database: Main - Singers - Music Director's - Lyricists Fun: PP - EKB - Relay - Satires - Quiz