Topic started by Rajaraman (@ 192.122.136.148) on Sat Jul 26 05:27:10 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.
Responses:
- From: Rajaraman (@ 192.122.136.148)
on: Sat Jul 26 05:32:33 EDT 1997
Here's something to make HC deva, ARR fans happy... : )
There are songs in which IR has done copying on the
large scale.
darling darling darling(Priya) - Sunny (BoneyM)
maaman oodu machi oodu(Ellaam inbamayam) - Raa ra venugopala(Bilahari raga keerthanai)
Kanabu kaanum vaazhkai(Neengal kettavai) - Kasme vaathe pyar(a hindi song)
Any others?
I wonder what made a great composer like IR to resort to such copying.
- From: ravi (@ ww-te42.proxy.aol.com)
on: Sat Jul 26 08:14:49 EDT 1997
Back in the days of Ceylon Radio there used to be programme Asalum Nagalum. They mainly target IR for their analysis (as he was the most prolific). One of his copied songs is
pon malargalin irrupidam - theerthakaraiyinilae
I don't remember the source
- From: Shashi (@ 137.197.35.41)
on: Sat Jul 26 13:30:39 EDT 1997
Interesting topic Rajaraman. I am a raja fanatic but I do accept to his occasional adaptations of other original compositions.
In fact the only song I know that is complete copy is the song "kanavu kaanum vazhakai yavum.." it is sung by Manna Dey in Hindi and is quite old. Also a strange concidence is the fact that this a Balu Mahendra movie and in another B. Mahendra movie called 'Unkannil neer vazhinthal' there is an exellent song by KJY. This song is "enna desamo idhu enna desamo.." which is the exact copy of a great Lata Mangeshkar song "naa koi umang hai.." in the movie Kati Pathang.
Also in most B. Mahendra movies somewhere in the BGM when a radio plays usally a Hindi song of the yesteryears is usual. Is is all a coincidence or is there a message from B. Mahendra??
- From: Padmanabhan Ganesan (@ client-116-32.bellatlantic.net)
on: Sat Jul 26 22:29:13 EDT 1997
IR 'adapted/copied' the starting of the third movement of Antonin Dvorak's New World Symphony for his 'Chittukkuruvi Vetkappadhu' in Chinna Veedu.
BTW, why is this list so short while ARR's and Deva's lists are extra long ? :-)
- From: Gopal Prasad (@ host-207-53-5-5.atl.bellsouth.net)
on: Sun Jul 27 12:03:31 EDT 1997
Ragaraman
A copy is a copy! No doubt. With this in mind let me tell something! This is no justification of Ilays stand on copying.
1. Kanavu kaanum from the hindi original could be redone in tamil to maintain originality/pressure from the dir/producer. A success formula?? I don know.
2. Priya was the first stereophonic recording in TamilFM. Anyway to enhance the sale of the movie and songs is welcome, as it is a new venture.
Again the dir/prod requesting the MD to give a good piece is no surprise.
3. Even if you get a dozen more copy/lifts/adapts
of Ilay,(which is highly impossible!!!) they are
just negligible considering the fountain of musical genius this guy has!! Ilay says in interview that a stroke here and a stroke there the canvas of music/songs can be changed and he did that with a song from MSV's hit archive!! He goes on to say its just the abracadabra!!
4. Copy masters like Deva (Thamizhagathu Bappi Lahari)ARR, SG (and Agasthiyan, in your words?) and the like cannot hide their urge to go on the prowl for lifts, bits, snatches, adapts, when it comes to really giving an excellent song!! The true nature of the copiers manifests when it comes to the commercial point of view! Yes! That shows the limitations! ARR does that with great perception!! In fact, I love to do that way! Deva, even though has a coterie of so called music making brothers, is not that intelligent to go ahead with the copy stuff!! He is a bit of cat on the wall! Copies his own copied stuff, copies Ilay,loves to copy the western beats, but not able to exercise his ideas in this avenue!! Listen to Deva's so called excellent beat songs! They would be either repetition or half-baked novice attempt! Poor soul! And finally tries to unsuccessfully follow ARR!!
Ilays consistency with creativity is such that even today his tunes have the charm and melody to hold you in sway!! Try this with the rest of the also rans (in terms of melody, novelty etc., not in terms of commercial enterprise, as IR is an also ran in this area) and you can understand!!
I cannot imagine the situation after 10 years from now when ARRs, Devas and the like would be churning out music (?)One thing is certain!!
Both these MDs and the audience will have one thing in common! Repetitive Stress Syndrome!!!
- From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.8)
on: Mon Jul 28 02:41:18 EDT 1997
Does the song 'pudhu rUttule thaan' from Meera sound like 'gori therra' of Chitchor? KJY's voive in both the songs make it more close sounding.
Another related topic - RAJA COPYING HIMSELF. He has done this many times.
madhurai marikkozhundhu - yamahO ni yama yama (Ja. vee. adhilOka sundari -Telugu)
Eh zindagi (Sadma) - en vaazhvilE (thambikku endha ooru)
sangaththil paadaatha kavidhai (Auto Raja) - thumbi vaa (OLangaL - Malayalam)
chinaa maNi kuyile (amman kOyil kizhakkaalE) - Telugu
veLLi nilaa padhumai - Telugu
andharangam yaavumE (1000 nilavE vaa) - Telugu
Has he repeated his own songs in the same language (Save the second interlude of 'en vaazhvilE'. It was done in 'poongkaatRu')?
- From: Rajaraman (@ 192.122.135.224)
on: Mon Jul 28 04:51:06 EDT 1997
Copy in the same language(Tamil) has happened
because of the telugu->tamil dubbing process.
1.yamaho nee yamma yaamma - NOT mathurai
marikozhunthu in Tamil dub "kaathal devathai"
2. enno raathri(same tune as "maasi maasam
aalaana ponnu")
3. Telugu version of "puthiya poovithu" (Telugu
movie is Surya IPS)
4. There is one in Bobbili Raja also.
5. "andharangam yaavume" has become a duet in
remade version.
- From: NO Valen (@ 202.184.134.10)
on: Mon Jul 28 05:56:19 EDT 1997
Do you'll know that certain parts of Masthana Masthana is a blatant copy of a English song? (I am refering to Isadey, isadey). I was downright disappointed.
IR fans - do not make excuses for IR!!!
- From: gopal_nanban (@ bones.deneb.com)
on: Mon Jul 28 08:12:15 EDT 1997
GOOOPAAAALLLLLL! ENNA ACHU NANBA, ROMBA
UNARCHIVASAP PADURA!! PATHUMMA, PASANGA
ETHAVATHU SOONA SOLLU, NAMMA PETTAI PAKKAM VANTHA
PINNIRUVOM.
Tit-bits from Early 90's IR music concert in Madurai:
when Kamal wanted a song similar to "nAn pArthathilE avaL oruthiyaithAn nalla azagienbEn"
for Aboorva sagotharagal; IR was just smiling
and said "athiyE konjam mAthip pOtuviduvOm"
and gave "puthu mApillaiku nalla yOgamadA".
When MSV and IR were working together for
mella thiranthathu kathavu - IR wanted to
convert "vAn meethilE inbath thEn mArip peiyuthE"
(very early MSV-TKR song) and made
"vaa vennilA unnaith thAne vAnam thEduthE"
- From: PG (@ igw2.merck.com)
on: Mon Jul 28 09:35:10 EDT 1997
To N.O.Valen :
Masthana Masthana (Isadey Isadey) comes from Harry Belafonte. But IR uses only the words - the tune is NOT copied.
- From: Shashi (@ 137.197.35.41)
on: Tue Jul 29 00:22:59 EDT 1997
Yes. Raja Sir, who I consider my 'manaseega guru' has repeated a song in the same language without it going to another language and then being transported back to the parent language.
This song first came out in the movie Saynthadamma Saynthadu. The song is sung by P.Susheela. It is "Kannan enna sonaan, siru pillaye kann malarai, karannam yen kodi mulaiye...
This song re-appears in a Lakshmi movie about 10 years later & was sung by S. Janaki. Again, the song is sung to a child just like the 1st version. The song is " Olai kudisaiyila, pazham selayil oonjalaadum, kuruvikunju ilam poompinju.... I dont remember the name of this movie, but in this Lakshmi becomes the mayor of the city after a humble start.
I loved the initial version of P. Susheela so much that I recorded the S.J. version too and there is no difference absolutely between the 2 tunes. The interludes are however different. The only explanation I have for this is Raja Sir must have loved this tune and since the first tune was only a moderate success he wanted it re-released.
- From: E.Hariharan (@ amex.proxy.lucent.com)
on: Wed Jul 30 17:14:08 EDT 1997
Here is another one.
'enna venum thinnuga doi' in uyarntha ullam and 'vala vikkum kadalku je' in aborrva sagathoragal has the same starting tune, which
incidently resembles one of elton john's song
'grey seal'.
e.hari
- From: Guru (@ proxy.unicentre.edu.au)
on: Wed Jul 30 23:42:06 EDT 1997
The song 'Kuyile kuppam' from the movie Puthu Nellu Puthu Nathu and 'Thooliyile' form Chinnathambi have got the exact pallavi tunes which go different ways at the anupallavi.
- From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com)
on: Mon Aug 4 19:57:02 EDT 1997
Iraja has copied from "the flight of the bumblebee" in the second interlude of the
song "oh butterfly" from Meera.
- From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu)
on: Wed Aug 6 19:47:32 EDT 1997
O butterfly copied from the flight of the bumblebee? Not at all.
After reading to your posting, I listened to both quite a large number
of times. Only similarity I could find was that they are both
good audio representation of flight of some insect.
- From: PG (@ client-116-12.bellatlantic.net)
on: Wed Aug 6 20:35:34 EDT 1997
I second aruLarasan. I don't think they are copied at all.
- From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ liberty.nus.edu.sg)
on: Wed Aug 6 22:16:43 EDT 1997
Sashi:
Innoru querry-il "Kannan" songs list pannumpOdhu
indha Sayndhaadammaa Sayndhaadu vil varum "Kannan
enna sonnaan ..." paattu njaabagam vandhuchchu;
appO padam peyar njaabagam varalE, ippO neenga
solleettEnga. Indha paattu is somewhat special:
kasa-musaa vendru oru tune-ilirundhu innOnnukku pOi,
mudhal varigal oru muzhu moochchOdu neeLamaaga pOgum.
Indha paattu release aanappO naangal ellaam
kEliyaa solluvOm: Paattu recording nadandhappO
IR PS-idam, "neenga paattukku paadittu irungammaa,
naan pOi tea kudichuttu vandhudarEn" endru
sollittu pOi vittaarO, endru. Aanaal I agree
with you: paattu kasa-musa vendru pOnaalum,
kEkkuradhukku different-aaga inimaiyaa irukkum.
- From: PG (@ igw2.merck.com)
on: Thu Aug 7 12:57:47 EDT 1997
About
Of Butterfly and
The Flight of the Bumblebee
I checked with two version of the FOTBB : a proper classical version and YoYoMa and Bobby McFerrin's version in the album Hush : I can't see any similarities at all.
Aagaya Vennilave
Tharai meedhu vandhadheno
from Arangetra veLai
sounds very similar to
Vaarayo veNNilave from Missiamma.
- From: Shashi (@ 137.197.35.41)
on: Thu Aug 7 15:27:04 EDT 1997
To Sathiya Keerthi
I am happy atleast one other soul has heard to this song and appreciates it.
I also agree to the fact that in the 2nd stanza the main melody line abruptly changes. In my mind the comparison is "when you are driving at a higher speed and for some reason shift to a lower gear, the engine rev's up and the smoothness of the ride changes"; this is how it feels, agree?!
Have you heard the SJ version of this song. It is pretty good too.
Also because you seem to be aware of rare/less appreciated songs do you remember the song from the movie "vattathukkuL Sathuram". The song is 'Itho itho en nenjilae orey paadal.... sung by 2 female voices. I think it is SJ & Shailaja although it may be SJ and Jency. This is wonderful song and even the picturization of two friends having a good time is just great.
The very same starting tune of the above song repeats in a later song by Jayachrandran in the movie "Enpurushan thaan Enakku matum thaan". The song is 'pullai kooda paada vaitha pullaanguzhal...'. Later however the melody is different. If you have listened to either of these songs reply.
- From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9)
on: Thu Aug 7 23:48:59 EDT 1997
Shashi
'ithO ithO' is a marvellous song. The lyrics are too good too. The violin interludes are great. I think 'nadigaiyar thilakam' Savithri acted in that movie, perhaps for the last time.
PG
'aagaaya veNNilaavE' and 'vaaraayO veNNilaavE' have only one similarity - 'veNNilaa'. Otherwise they are distinctly different.
- From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ liberty.nus.edu.sg)
on: Thu Aug 7 23:49:24 EDT 1997
Sariyaa sonneenga Shashi "Kannan enna sonnaan.." paattu
patri. Naan Janaki version kEttadhillai. Neengal
sollum "Idho idho en nenjile.."-vum naan andha
kaalaththil rasiththu kEtta paadal. Recent-aa
Rajaraman nadaththiya MIME pOttiyil indha paattai
kEttrirundhhaaru; appaththaan pala varudangaL
kazhichchu ippaattu njaabagam vandhuchchu. Idhai
paadubavargaL SJ+Jikki-nnu naan ninaikkiren.
Padaththil Latha+Sumithra? Aanaal "pullai kooda ..."
paattu kEttadhillai; andha padamum paaththadhillai.
Indha 80-87 period-il naan romba TF+TFM miss
pannittEn.
- From: arun (@ internet1.ford.com)
on: Fri Aug 8 18:21:23 EDT 1997
To PG:
I was told that the `rumbumbum.. aarumbam..'
from MMKRajan was lifted from a 50's rock and
roll song named `rock around the clock' by Bill
Haley & The Comets. I haven't had a chance to
listen to it but I believe even the `1'o clock..
2'o clock..' comes from there (meaning not
unintentional).
Somebody mentioned that `puthu mappilikku' from
A. Sagotharargal was a variation of `nan
parthathile' from Anbe Vaa. Maybe. But I have
heard that `paapaapaa.. paaparey..' piece on TV
twice when somebody was reciting an old Engish
song. I could not find the name of that song but
sounded like a nursery rhyme. (One of the two
times was on America's funniest home videos, in
which a girl was singing *this* with milk in her
hands and when her younger brother leaves a pet
bird on her head from behind and as a reflex she
splashes the milk right on her face.. and
incidentally it got the $10,000 prize)
I am not much into western contemporary or
classical music. But my roomate during my
college days who was listening to lots of
classical and new age music and quite
knowledgeable in western music used to show me
lots of influences (what could be called
`lifts') from western compositions. They were
the same notes but played with indian
instruments. (I don't know if I am speaking the
lingo.) He even showed me the notes for the last
guitar piece that `Ilaiyanila..' ends with,
which the whole song was based on. (I still love
that song.)
I am not trying to disparage Ilaiyaraja's
achievement in anyway. My point is, if put under
microscope, nobody is `original' and without
influence. There is a fine line between Deva and
Sirpy style copying and Raja or Rahman's.
The reason that Ilaiyaraja's list is lot shorter
because he never had to go through the fine-comb
analysis that Rahman is going through. That's
why nobody was bothered when, in
Nattuppurppattu, he repeated the same tune and
rhythm for `Kizhakkale..' from `Maanguyile..' in
Karakkattakkaran, which, according to Gangai
Amaran, was based on some kavadichindu. In
addition, couple of other songs in the same
movie are too similar to those in KKaran.
(`kokki vechen' -> `munthi munthi', `solladi
mariyamma' -> `mariyamma mariyamma'.)
Another reason: Raja's music is more "south-
indian" sounding whereas Rahman's is more, let's
say, "international". So it seems more
pronounced even if there was even a remote
similarity, while IR's influences are hard to
recognize.
What music you like is purely your personal
choice, but if you cannot enjoy someone else's
music that does not necessarily mean they are no
good. That is when the bias comes into play and
the mind tries to invent reasons why he is no
good. Besides, if the measure of talent becomes
a popularity contest (like it seems to be in
this forum) you are making the case too easy for
Rahman.
(I am going to refrain from anymore postings
until I buy my own computer.)
- From: vasanth (@ antares.cc.umanitoba.ca)
on: Thu Aug 21 15:41:30 EDT 1997
Iraja also copied a tune from Sound of Music -
the song in Yatra (Malayalam movie) - thaiyannum ...thallathil addi(the sequence where all the kids sing together) is exactly the same as ...roses and ...
vasanth
- From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27)
on: Thu Aug 21 16:47:46 EDT 1997
To Vasanth:
I love this song in "Sound of Music" because of the wonderful music and lyrics:
Raindrops and roses and blue satin sachets
Snowflakes that fall on your nose and eyelashes
Brown paper packages tied up with strings
These are the few of my favourite things
When the dog bites, when the bee stings
When you are feeling sad...
You simply remember your favourite things
And you won't feel so bad..
I remember seeing that song in Doordarshan long back. School students going for a picnic in a bus sing "thannannam theyannanum thalathil aadi.." Am I right?
- From: Shashi (@ 137.197.35.41)
on: Fri Aug 22 01:21:01 EDT 1997
The song in the movie Chathriyan sung by SJ and chorus "PootukuL vaithaalum kootukuL nirkaadhu kaatru...." also reminded me of "Rain drops and roses..." in Sound of Music when I first listened to it. Although they are not exact copies the scale, notes and progression are similar enough to atleast say there was a heavy influence.
- From: Arvind (@ 204.245.93.102)
on: Fri Aug 22 13:37:47 EDT 1997
Rain drops of roses waw again copied in one more song in Kanne kaniyamuthe
Singara thazhampoo pookinra kaadu
pookinra poonkatril paniange ..
Same tune
- From: Brijesh Krishnaswami (@ rc-cola.cis.ohio-state.edu)
on: Sat Jun 13 17:16:32 EDT 1998
I came across this forum by accident and found it making very interesting reading. Speaking for myself, I consider Ilaiyaraja's music probably the best I would hear in my lifetime, and I believe that the fact that he "tweaked" some/many songs only goes on to reflect his fondness/passion for them. No one who has listened to 'How to Name it' or the somgs in 'Nizhalgal' or the background scoring in 'Gopura Vaasalile' and other innumerable instances, can deny the fact that Ilaiyaraja is the epitome of cine music. I celebrate Raja's music, it evokes feelings that nothing else on earth can evoke, and it is ALIVE. Where others' music is lacking is, I feel, the musical MATURITY that one can hear in every raja note. This posting is not a oneupmanship of Ilaiyaraja, it's just a bow of respect to his music.
Brijesh
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