Home   Forum   Wiki   Notes   Register   FAQ   Sitemap   About Us   Contact Us  

Thaalam - Rhythmic Structures in TFM

Topic started by Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on Wed Jul 21 06:18:30 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I would like to see the input of our 'Konwledgeable' DFfers on the use of Thaalam in TFM, for example, in the song ORANJAARAM in Kaakai Chiraginile, by Ilayaraja, he has not only used the Raga Desh beautifully, but also set the song to MISHRA CHAAPU Thaalam, this is one of 7 beats, Thakitta ThakkaDhimi. This I feel is rare in songs, as mostly they are in Aadhi Thaalam(8 beats - ThakaDhimi ThakaJhanu), somethimes in Thisra Nadai(Thakitta - 3 beats). Ilayaraja has also used the KANDA CHAAPU Thalam in the song ALAI MEEDHU from Kadhal Kavidhai. This too was quite stunning.

I would appreciate your insightful comments and additions please. We may be able to compile a Thalam Database from this.

---

Responses:

• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Wed Jul 21 06:21:47 EDT 1999
  
  Read KNOWLEDGEABLE DFfers! Sorry!
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Wed Jul 21 11:12:32 EDT 1999
  
  No takers yet? Please respond someone!
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Wed Jul 21 11:41:11 EDT 1999
  
  Geetha;
  By calling for "Knowledgeable DFers", you excluded about 95% of us ;-) that's why no one seems to be willing to contribute :-))) Meanwhile, why don't you go ahead and give us a primer on thaalams ? I know zilch about thalams :-(
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Wed Jul 21 12:10:30 EDT 1999
  
  Srinath: You're still knowledgeable though! :)
  
  I'm by no means the person to give a primer on Thaalams. This is why I have called upon you all to contribute!
  
  Please help, Someone!
  
  I would appreciate any comments on Rhythms, structures in TFM.
  
  
• From: SitaRam (@ portal.ameritech.com) on: Wed Jul 21 13:06:54 EDT 1999
  
  Geetha we are with you. glad to see you starting off with IR as the inspiration for this potentially enlightening thread. Every entry of yours is followed with great zest by me.
  
  
• From: SRK (@ tan7.ncr.com) on: Wed Jul 21 13:18:25 EDT 1999
  
  Although I am not knowledgeable in music, let me make a small contribution assuming Geetha doesn't mind discussing drum beats:
  
  I felt the beats in konji konji and the first interlude of Ninnukori varnam were very different.
  
  Even ARR has come up with some very diferent beats: Kadhal rojave(Roja), Thoda thoda (Indira)- this has one of the raciest beats, Rangeela re(Rangeela), thanga thamarai(Minsara Kanavu).
  
  KR's contributions in this area: "Sandanam thechaachu" and "unakenna raasa" from Manickam.
  
  
• From: Diwakar (@ 206.175.177.168) on: Wed Jul 21 15:48:09 EDT 1999
  
  I had started a topic similar to this a while back, but I suppose it needed Geetha to get some people to contribute :-) Anyway, good going Geetha.
  
  I feel the "Aagaayavennilaave" from Arangetra Velai is a fantastic composition in its rhythmic structure. Though it is a simple Rupaka talam, it takes a while to figure it out. Awesome!
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freeway.proxy.lucent.com) on: Wed Jul 21 16:38:25 EDT 1999
  
  Another complicated thalam structure would be "Meendum Meendum vaa" from "vikram" set in Dharmavati ragam.I think its set in 7/5 cycles.
  "thum thum thak thak thak thum thum".
  Correct me if I am wrong.
  
  
• From: Isai rasigai (@ columbo.wfd.com) on: Wed Jul 21 16:43:16 EDT 1999
  
  I like the rhythmic patterns in thathiththom vithaigal .... from azhagan... Chithra once said in an inteview that it was one of the difficult songs for her to sing because of the tune and the beats....
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ dermpc1.mayo.edu) on: Wed Jul 21 16:50:50 EDT 1999
  
  Hi Geetha
  
  IR has given numerous songs in both Mishra and Kanda Chaapu thaalams.
  
  Some that come into mind are:
  
  1. Adhi Kaalai nilave, alangaara chilaye, puthu raagam nee paadi vaa... from Urudhi mozhi. This is a wonderful duet by SJ and Jayachandran set to Kanda Chaapu.
  
  2. Nadhil Aadum poovanam, alaigal veesum samaram..from Kaathal Oviyam (SJ & SPB) as well as a little known, yet wonderful duet--'Thai maatham kalyanam, angu kaathal oorkolam, mei yodu mei sErum, iru mEnI isai paadum' (Jayachandran and ?Sunandha) from the movie 'Thambiku oru paatu' are both set to Mishra Chaapu
  
  Anand: Meendum Meendum Vaa.. is set to Mishra Chaapu as well.
  
  Isai rasigai: From Azhagan, the song Jaathimali poocharame.. is set to Mishra Chaapu.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.26.196) on: Wed Jul 21 18:14:44 EDT 1999
  
  Geetha,
  A very interesting topic. i have also been looking for some kanda chaapu based songs of IR.
  yes, alai meedhu is definitely a stunner.
  Shashi,
  is'nt 'manasu mayangum mouna geetham' from sippikul muthu in mishra chaapu?
  
  yes, 'oranjaaram' is definitely misr chaapu. singing to such a beat i guess is difficult, especially when there aren't enough space-filling words; so much so, SPB had to stretch and sing '...martinnnnn. luther kingayaaa' in order to
  maintain the rhythm.
  
  another mishra chaapu song I guess is 'kaalidaasan kambadaasan' from the film soorakottai singakutti(JC,PS).
  
  Geetha,
  is 'meetadha oru veenai' from poonthottam in kanda chaapu?
  
  
• From: raja (@ spider-wo022.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Jul 21 19:53:07 EDT 1999
  
  Another Misra Chaapu talam based song from IR-
  
  Aayiram Malargale Malarungal - Niram Maaradha Pookal.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Wed Jul 21 22:34:52 EDT 1999
  
  My pick is:
  
  adi aadi varum pallakku
  
  
• From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Thu Jul 22 19:42:17 EDT 1999
  
  vijay,
  
  yes. mIttAdha oru vINai is in kandachApu.
  
  gangaik karai mannanadi - varusham padhinARu - misra chApu (3+2+2 structure).
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Thu Jul 22 20:17:06 EDT 1999
  
  I guess 'rhythm' does not have to be necessarily 'tAlam', right ? Rhythm, comes from repeated use of certain/similar sequence of notes.
  'tAlam' is basically timing, correct ? I am just trying to understand some music basics here.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.135) on: Thu Jul 22 23:32:30 EDT 1999
  
  Can some techie clarify whether the following songs have some not-so-usual thaalam (my ears say so, just want to confirm):
  
  a) Solaippoovil maalaitthendral aadum neram (Vellai Roja)
  b) Pon vaanam panneer thoovuthu inneram (Indru nee naalai naan)
  
  Thanks in advance
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Wed Jul 28 07:47:57 EDT 1999
  
  Thnaks all, this is getting quite interesting. Please do carry on.
  
  Sashi & Vijay: You seem very knowledgeable in this area, please give us nore input.
  
  The song, Vaarai En Thozliye from Arasiyal, by Vidhayasagar is in Mishra Chaapu(7)
  
  ARR's did a very nice Waltz rhythm in the song Endhan Uyiril Uzlavum Devi from Monalisa(not released as a film, came out as Khabi na Kabhi in Hindi). This is a traditional waltz, which is the equivalent of Rupakam(3 - Thakita), only most songs are in Adhi Thalam, Thisra Jaadhi, Which is an 8 beat cycle, each beat in Three. It also starts on the eduppu(skipping a beat at the first set of three) - 23 123 123 123 123 - Hope this is not too complex.
  
  Has anyone come across a Talamalika(Garland of Thalams, e.g. every charanam in a different Thalam)? I am also trying to identify anythin in Sankirnam, 9 Beat cycles - Thakkadhimi(4) Thakka(2) Thakida(3).
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Wed Jul 28 08:40:07 EDT 1999
  
  Another Mishra Chaapu(7) I can think of, off hand, is Kaadhal Raagam Padume Vaanam Paadida Vaa from Deva Ragam, MD Marakadhamani.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp02.sprint.com) on: Wed Jul 28 11:13:30 EDT 1999
  
  Geetha,
  
  Maasilaa nilavEy nam kaadhalai magizhvOdu from Ambikaapathy was a thaalamaalikaa with the pallavi and first charanam in Adi, second charaNam in Waltz/Rupakam/Dadra and the third charaNam in misrachapu. BTW it was also a raagamalika. One of the interesting numbers in this area is "mEgHaa cHaayE aadHi raath" by S.D.Burman from the film Sharmilee. He keeps shifting between the 4/4 and misrachapu during the course of the song. While the song itself is in misrachapu, the prelude and the first interlude music are in 4/4 with 'western' tunes.
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Wed Jul 28 11:47:23 EDT 1999
  
  rajaG: Thanks so much for this info, it's extremely interesting, as I vaguely remember the song, but never noticed that it was a Talamalika! All I recall is that the first part (Maasilanilavevaa kaadhalin lalalala) is in Maand Raga!
  
  I don't know the other song, but it certainly sounds fascinating.
  
  Please carry on with your various insights.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp02.sprint.com) on: Wed Jul 28 12:21:15 EDT 1999
  
  One more interesting observation about "mEgHaa cHaayE" if I remember correctly- after the pallavi is rendered by Lata, a 4/4 interlude music is played for 7 bars, so that it can blend perfectly with a remaining interlude music in misrachaapu for 2 bars and then the first charaNam by Lata starts. This guy was gooood!
  
  In a movie called Raasaleelai?? starring Kamalahaasan with SriVidya ( a malayaaLam original) Salil Chowdhury had composed a song called "kiLiyE kiLi kiLiyE" which shifts between rupakam/dadra (pallavi) and kanda chaapu (charaNams). KJY was the male lead and I think the female lead was Sujatha or SJ. A very interesting number.
  
  
• From: Madhan (@ 202.41.117.62) on: Wed Jul 28 12:53:45 EDT 1999
  
  Friends,
  
  THe beats / Tala structure of the following songs were very unsual -
  
  1.Eeramaana Rojavey - from ILAMAI KAALANGAL
  
  2.Varudhu Varudhu ilangaatru - from BRAHMA
  
  3.Poo malarndhida - from TIK TIK TIK
  
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.189) on: Wed Jul 28 18:37:21 EDT 1999
  
  Pottu vaitha oru vatta nila is another good example of misra chaapu.
  
  I guess iramana rojaave is set in the 3-beat roopaka thala.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on: Thu Jul 29 13:04:56 EDT 1999
  
  Madhan and Vijay,
  
  If you are talking about the eeramaana rOjaavEy by KJY and that annoying female/girl's voice at the end, it is set in regular 4/4 beat. It is just that the percussion is skipping a beat to give a feel for something else.
  
  
• From: raja (@ icon-njfw.icon.com) on: Thu Jul 29 14:45:02 EDT 1999
  
  RajaG:
  
  Thanks for reminding the malayalam song-long forgotten - both VJ and KJY did a good job - Salil Chaudhri's malayalam music always had that bengali touch - songs from Chemmeen . The song from Sharmilee is also unusual in terms of beats. Any songs in TFM where the beat changes between stanzas?
  
  Another Misra chappu talam songs from IR
  Ninaithal Innikum - Kalyanaraman
  
  Rupakam Talam:
  Mounamana Neram - Salangai Oli
  Oru Inniya Manadhu - Jhonny
  Bharati Kannama MSV - Ninaithale Innikum
  Thakita Thadhimi - Salangai Oli
  
  Madhan:
  
  Poomalarndhida - from Tik tik tik is set to Adi Thalam (8 beats)
  
  Mapillaiku maaman manasu - Netrikan is adi talam in a different nadai.
  
  
  
• From: Sengambalam (@ 192.4.230.254) on: Thu Jul 29 15:02:21 EDT 1999
  
  En kalyana vaibhogam unnodu thaan - 5 beat cycle
  
  
• From: Bharathi (@ 149.77.165.236) on: Fri Jul 30 00:07:09 EDT 1999
  
  Sreedevi enn vaazhvil from some old movie is also in Rupakam , right?
  
  
• From: cram (@ 206.103.12.102) on: Fri Jul 30 09:00:37 EDT 1999
  
  does "kaalai paniyil aadum malargaL" from gayatri (what a song!!!) come under some special thaLam category? i don't know anything about thaLam, but this song has a strange structure, which is why i asked.
  
  
• From: raja (@ icon-njfw.icon.com) on: Fri Jul 30 09:18:14 EDT 1999
  
  Cram:
  
  Kaalai paniyil from Gayatri is set to Rupaka Talam.
  
  
• From: cram (@ 206.103.12.102) on: Sat Jul 31 05:49:26 EDT 1999
  
  thanks raja
  
  
• From: Raja Fan (@ spider-wd023.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Jul 31 13:43:11 EDT 1999
  
  I thought Salil's songs were so South Indian, particularly malayalee sounding, that is probably why he gave his best in Malayalam films.
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02964.mayo.edu) on: Wed Aug 4 10:19:54 EDT 1999
  
  Hi Geetha
  
  One other song in Mishra Chaapu--Anbe vaa Arugile... from KiLipEchu ketkava (Fazil movie).
  
  Also, this song has been composed in Charukesi for the most part. However, I happened to listen to a raga called 'Charukauns' by Pandit Ravishankar. This is apparently a fusion of Charukesi and Malkauns. IMO the song 'Anbe vaa augile..' resembles charukauns.
  
  
• From: Kuruvinth (@ on-tor-blr-a58-03-1163.look.ca) on: Sat Mar 25 11:21:31 EST 2000
  
  What are the 35 thalams?
  
  

---

List all pages of this thread

---

Back to the Forum

Post comments