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Ir's limitations

Topic started by krishnan (@ uswgne11.uswest.com) on Wed Jul 8 15:52:59 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I know I am going to get a few bouncers.Let me start off any way & put
on a helmet.If one were to play with numbers, considering all of IR's
4000 plus songs ( atleast the popular ones) one could classify most of
them under 15 main ragas.( eg. mohanam, kalyani etc).I know of countless
songs he has done in mohanam & MMgowla.Well, one has to give dure credit
to him to have composed in nalinakanthi & kambiranattai.And how many
folk in sindhubhairavi.I understand that even a pure classical singer
limits himself to these standard ragas.That does not mean IR has to
tread on the same path ( applying these ragas).Well, has IR done in
umabharanam or dwijavanthi or any of the rare rags that dikshitar has
done.No comparisons here please.This is the challenge that lies ahead of
the future musicians.IR may have started on a western background, &
started to pick up on carnatic later ( with the help of TVG).I would
like to see him do more on some rare ragas.No more
mohanam,kalyani,S.bhairavi please.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Thu Dec 21 15:04:33 EST 2000
  
  Great job guys on explaining the nuances of WCM. Thanks. In order to appreciate IR, I think people should just start out by identifying the various instruments playing. Then trying to notice what the various instruments are playing. Once this exercise is taken up it will be very obvious that the song is not that simple. These nuances were done in the days of AM Radio and almost went unnoticed (its just my theory that IR was popular in TN just for the melody and that his orchestration was underappreciated).
  BTW, Douglas Hofstadter is a great author. He used to write in Scientific American. I have thorougly enjoyed his book 'Metamagical themas' which was an anagram on 'Mathematical magic'. I have been wanting to read the one mentioned by PG. I think I should get it sooner. Strongly suggested.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Thu Dec 21 15:28:41 EST 2000
  
  Thanks so much for the link guys. Seems like we have lots of like minded people here. Why dont we start a permanent thread instead of wasting time on numerous other pointless threads?
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Thu Dec 21 16:28:00 EST 2000
  
  
  Eden,
  I thought SPB's singing suited Prabhu's expression to a tee in the song and it was very good in fact.The song was good except the fact the interludes were just the usual stuff of IR.
  If you want to praise IR go ahead but please spare SPB for what he hasn't done.
  
  All these discussion doesn't suit the thread's name at all.From lot of like-minded people's views here the thread's name(IR's limitations) seems to be a absolute mis-definition.C'mon guys, be bold enough and start a thread like "Singing IR's praise" and let your creative knowledge flow there.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Thu Dec 21 16:41:01 EST 2000
  
  There is no meaning to the term "Creative knowledge"...you dont get creative just by knowing things. You need to make a good use out of it. It is true, we may appear to praise IR a lot. Thats because of his works and aspects of music that we havent seen in other MDs. I would rather talk about IRs positive things than negative things, because if you know more music you will do the same.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Thu Dec 21 16:58:13 EST 2000
  
  Talk about IR's positive things that's fine but people here discuss in the vein that if a IR song is not good it is because of other contributors of the song.
  
  Nowadays,noone is opposing even if you praise IR as god and even if some one starts a thread pointing that out the thread disappears in no time.So go ahead and talk about IR's positive things to your hearts content.But let that thread have a appropriate name.
  
  I agree this is the only knowledgeable thread we have here now.I'm trying to direct what I can into a musical novice's(mine) head.
  
  "Thats because of his works and aspects of music that we havent seen in other MDs"
  The reason for that is:I would like to quote you again "Seems like we have lots of like minded people here".
  I don't want to spoil the harmony u guys have among yourselves.
  Happy holidays.
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Thu Dec 21 17:15:50 EST 2000
  
  trend:
  you are welcome to expose ir's limitations. please do that. (btw, we are not interested in knowing your limitations :-) ). happy holidays.
  
  
• From: Naveen (@ 204.255.14.188) on: Thu Dec 21 17:18:13 EST 2000
  
  C'mon Trend. don't take it seriously.
  smile :) :) :) cheeeese :) click ;)
  
  Swamiji..
  Please avoid comments like if
  you know more music you will do the same etc.
  
  I'm sorry if I'd hurt you. I felt like saying this to you.
  
  
  Naveen
  
  
• From: Raaja (@ 140.239.247.146) on: Thu Dec 21 17:36:36 EST 2000
  
  But Naveen, Trend's comment like "Singing IR's praise" is unwarranted. I don't blame Swamiji for his reply. Trend cannot stand if someone talks about positive side of IR.
  
  
  
• From: gundu (@ 63.228.161.174) on: Thu Dec 21 18:00:58 EST 2000
  
  hey guys,
  
  was getting at s.th. w.r.t fugue ... now in "dil se re " song, towards the end, arr leads the chorus by some delta time measure .. can this be called fugue ??
  
  very interesting discussion ..
  happy holidays ..
  
  
• From: Vijay (@ 212.137.176.103) on: Thu Dec 21 18:06:24 EST 2000
  
  This "Trend" guy has done it again... one stupid posting from him has sent us all veering of course... please folks, especially Naveen, Swamiji and AruLacaran, you guys usually come up with useful things to say... it's not nice to see you guys giving importance to what this "Trend" says. Give us something good.
  
  
• From: Naveen (@ 204.255.14.188) on: Thu Dec 21 18:10:50 EST 2000
  
  Raaja, Vijay
  Musically, I know very well about Swamiji & the gift he has got. Powerful guys like him can easily kick out people like Trend from this DF. Personally I do not want that to happen. Let the DF be interesting. No one should be personally hurt. thats what I feel.
  
  Naveen
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Thu Dec 21 18:12:45 EST 2000
  
  Yes Naveen, i retorted bluntly. That wasn't necessary. Thanks for pointing it out.
  Happy hols!!
  
  
• From: lakshmi (@ ) on: Fri Aug 27 18:02:22 EDT 2004
  
  could anyone pls tell me what is the meaning of dwijavanthi.i know it is raga.but i want to know the exact meaning of word dwijavanthi
  
  
• From: purv (@ 137.140.142.87) on: Sat Aug 28 09:04:28 EDT 2004
  
  I think it takes much musical intelligence to compose a catchy melody that is not raga-based (I have myself done a few tunes that are based not on a raaga but a raaga scale has been used). However, I LIKE tunes based on raagams; it's the way I am.
  
  There are some songs of IR that may have a trace of a raagam at one point in the song, but then the scale changes totally. For instance, in 'Raasaave Unnai Naan...' if you hear the first line, 'Raasaave Unnai Naan Ennai Thaan- Ada Raakkozhi Koovumma Kannathaal' or whatever, if you have a lot of raga knowledge, you would immediately be saying, 'Sudhasaveri.' But although the pallavi may roughly follow Sudhasaveri protocol, the charanam uses a totally different scale, wherein the Pa is omitted, and the Ga3 and Ni3 are added to the original scale. Now, what raaga can this song be mapped to? It isn't pure Sudhasaveri, nor is it pure Hamsavinodhini.
  
  In regards to pop/rock songs that are raaga-based, I know of some that are set to Mayamalavagowla (Allah Un Aanaippaadi- Chandralekha; En Ithayam Muzhuthum- Ilayavan), Sarasangi (Maharajanodu- Sathi Leelaavathi), Keeravaani (Aalaapanai Seyyum- Ponmegalai), Mohanam (Naal Thorum Ennai- Devathai; Naan Thanga Roja- Time), Harikhambhodhi (Oru Naal Oru Kanavu- Kannukkul Nilavu), Sudhadhanyaasi (Vellipaniyil Alli Alli- Dhanush; Ilaiya Nadhi- Manasellaam) and even Brindhavana Saranga (Koyil Mani Kettene- Kannaa Unnai Thedugiren). But these are all fairly simple, straightforward raagas.
  
  WILL CONTINUE LATER...
  
  
• From: purv (@ 137.140.142.87) on: Sun Aug 29 21:41:59 EDT 2004
  
  What I was going to say is that, in Malayalam, at least, I have witnessed some hip songs with Karnatik influence in the melodies. For example, I was just listening to this great melody song 'Harichandanam' from the film 'Kannezhuthi Pottu Thottu' (forgive me if the title is incorrect) sung by MG Srikumar and MDed by MG Radhakrishnan. It is a jazzy song set to Aarabhi (?) raagam. Furthermore, Ravindran, who at one point did TFM, has recently gave one great hip Aarabhi based song in Njaan Salperu Ramankutty, namely 'Mandhaara Poovente Pulari Oru Kinnaaran Chodicho' again sung by MG Srikumar. That's what I wanted to say.
  
  

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