How to set lyrics to tune ?

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How to set lyrics to tune ? How to set lyrics to tune ?

Topic started by kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on Thu Jan 4 13:28:06 EST 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Lets discuss how to get the cantham of a poem and how to set it to a tAlam,as well.

Responses:

From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Thu Jan 4 13:29:24 EST 2001

aruLaracan, need your help to get this going.
I dont have my kaiyEdu handy. But I will post from it soon.
From: Naveen Jebaraj (@ 204.255.14.188) on: Thu Jan 4 13:48:47 EST 2001

In my Tamil class, I remember learning about 'asai' (ner asai nirai asai) and how they are taken care very well in olden poems. The phrases are broken very well to follow a constant rhythm. I'm not very good in explaining tamil poems. But I'm sure that they are well planned and set to a good tune. (I don't know how many tunes are preserved & exists today). If anyone knows about this please share your ideas.

Naveen
From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Thu Jan 4 14:13:19 EST 2001

Naveen,
thats right that's how it goes. I will give examples from thEavAram soon. thEvAram is supposed to be the inspiration for the musical Trinity.
From: aruLaracan (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Thu Jan 4 14:49:06 EST 2001

kiru :-),

naveen did the job. i have nothing more to say, except "thinking aloud" :-)

lyrics in my opinion, (also in ir's !! :-)) ) is not fit to tune but to chandhams. chandham is what naveen meant by 'asai'. asai, in a crude definition, means "grouping of vowels (and consonants)" (essentially what is known as syllable in english). therefore, given a tune, a lyricist has to identify the chandhams and then "fit" words to them (or write a songs, if you were a kaNNadhAsan :-) ).

let me explain this with an example (i heard "over the phone"). a friend of mine played a video(!) for me and i listened to this music show in the 80-s in singapore where ir was asked to compose two songs on the stage. the one relevant to us here is: he was asked to modify the song "thenpANdi chImaiyilE" for a bharathiraaja movie! ir immediately came up with a tune in (no surprise, SL :-) ) shanmugapriyA, if i remember correctly. he gave the tune that goes like

p d p m p d p m p d p m pmgr s... s - r g-- m- p...
the . n pa. . N di. . . .... .... chI . mai yi lE...

pdpm pdpm pdns nsgr (the reminder i forgot! :-) ).

anyways, if one sings these swaras, the tune is absolutely new, but the chandham remains the same!

i will come up with more well know examples soon.
From: hihi:-) (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Thu Jan 4 14:52:47 EST 2001

p d p m p d p m p d p m pmgr s... s - r g-- m- p...
the . . n pa. . N di. . . . . . . . . . . chI . mai yi lE...

hope the formatting is okay this time :-)
From: Velai_Vetti_nothing (@ 64.208.81.180) on: Thu Jan 4 15:10:26 EST 2001

infact,
chitra did not understand the tune, when ir told the sandams alone, but when ir gave the notes pa da pa ma...etc etc.. she sang the tune at once.

A person becomes a singer when he/she is able to sing the sandam in the form of musical notation.

A person becomes a writer when he/she is able to write for a sandam.

A person becomes a composer when he combines the notes and sandam properly to make a song.
From: doubter (@ 208.142.210.30) on: Thu Jan 4 16:42:00 EST 2001

I have noticed this in a few, very few songs. The lines of the song, do not follow a pattern. The lines are of unequal length, unequal no. of words etc. I am sure I am not explaining it clearly here. Hope this example helps.

Listen to 'malargaLE nAthasvarangkaL' from ki.pO.rail. The first and the second line does not seem to fall into a pattern. But consider 'thooLiyilE' from chinnath thambi. The first 2 lines seem to fall into a pattern. 4 words each, similar santham....

I think the former was a tune composed for a song and the latter is a song written for a santham.

Do I make sense?
From: Naveen Jebaraj (@ 204.255.14.188) on: Thu Jan 4 17:37:31 EST 2001

Let me recollect some more information from my 9th standard Tamil class

The least unit of time is 'Maathiri' (kan imaikkum neram OR time duration of a sodakku)

our kuril (a, e, i, o) takes 1 maathiri &
nedil (aa, eeee, oooo) takes 2 maathiris

all the 'meiyezhuthu's have 1/2 (.5) maathiri
(aayudha ezhuthu (ag) - 3 pulli), (kutriyalugaram, kutriyaligaram) are exceptional which also counts .5 maathirais

now this guy 'ner' is made of (single kuril or nedil) + (optional meiyezhuthu) (eg. naan, paar, vel, sel etc)
'nirai' is (double kuril or nedil) (eg. nadai, kadi etc.)

some hifi poets use 2, 3 meiyezhuthus continuously.

now there are 4 possible combinations

ner + ner = themaa
nirai + ner = puzhimaa
nirai + nirai = karuvizham
ner + nirai = koovizham

It looks very similar to our binary system!

If you take thirukural for example, they follow a specific pattern

karka kasadara karpavai katrapin
nirka atharkuth thaga

if you carefully observe all the kuralls have 4 words in the first line and 3 words in the 2nd line

Tirukkural follows some rules like the last word should end with 'themaa' or something like that (I'm not sure!).

when you split some big words, they may contain 'ner' + 'ner' + 'ner' = 'Themaangaai'
(even the themaangaai contains 'ner' + 'ner' + 'ner')
& 'ner' + 'ner' + 'nirai' = 'Themaangani'

Just for fun we sing the 'karka kasadara' poem as

'karka kasadara karpavai katrapin
katruthandha vaathiyaarai thooki pottu midhikkath thaga'

later I realized this version completely spoils the sandhams too!! :)

Naveen
From: Hmm... (@ 129.188.33.226) on: Thu Jan 4 18:03:18 EST 2001

A better version would be

karka kasadara kalkikumudan - katrapin
virka edaikkuth thaga
From: Naveen (@ 204.255.14.188) on: Thu Jan 4 18:05:05 EST 2001

cool.. this version preserves the sandhams!!
From: hihi:-) (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Thu Jan 4 19:19:00 EST 2001

Hmm... actually there is a chandhath thadai in kalkikumudham. this is a four syllabic cIr (roughly word but not exactly :-( ).

naveen,
good show. please continue.

(a digression: since ir enforces lyrics to a set chandham, most of his songs are potentially good kavidhai-s. it's just unfortunate that not many "kavignargaL" know how to write kavidhais :-( )
From: Naveen (@ 204.255.14.188) on: Thu Jan 4 20:16:24 EST 2001

hihi,

yedho enakku therinjadha sollitten. u pls. continue :)

Naveen
From: Naveen (@ 204.255.14.188) on: Thu Jan 4 20:19:45 EST 2001

'Song Satires' thread la namma makkal kalakkuraanga!! we need to learn chandhams from them.

Naveen
From: Naveen (@ 204.255.14.188) on: Thu Jan 4 20:21:16 EST 2001

typo 'Maathirai' not 'Maathiri'
From: eden (@ 202.144.64.4) on: Thu Jan 4 23:46:23 EST 2001

An extension of what Naveen wrote about ezhuththu (kuRil, nedil, mei) , asai (nEr & nirai) & seer (mA, viLam, kani etc. combinations), there is another important rule that governs the `seyyuL', this is called `thaLai' (connectivity rule). Each type of poem (e.g. thirukkuRaL is a veNpA) uses only a set of `thaLai's. (veNpA related thaLais are called veNtaLais)

This essentially links two `seer's which are to comply with a rule -like a nEr can only be followed by a nirai in the next seer for veNpa etc. This aspect is very important for the musical setting.

The fifth and sixth items are called `adi' (no. of lines in a poem, kuRaL has two) & `thodai' (rhyme, for which T Rajendar is famous).

Hence a musical poem should follow the grammar governing ezhuththu, asai, seer, thaLai, adi & thodai...aRindhO aRiyAmalO, last item is strictly followed by TFM (in visuals):-)
From: doubter (@ 208.142.210.30) on: Fri Jan 5 12:00:30 EST 2001

OK Guys. After a rather detailed introduction to ilakkaNam, can we try and see how these concepts are followed in TFM?
From: aruLaracan (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Fri Jan 5 13:38:56 EST 2001

i have another suggestion:

how about, if the owners permit, take songs from the lyrics competition or satire songs thread and study them in comparison with the original? this will be a good ciritique of the of the contributions to those threads and a learning experience for the rest of us!
From: maaNavan (@ 207.43.195.202) on: Fri Jan 5 14:36:01 EST 2001

eden:

smiyaai yaai yaai...magnet vizhiyaal manadhai thirudi kondaai.

ippaattai eduththukkaattai kondu, ippaattil ezhuththu,asai,seer, thaLai, adi, thodai ivatrinai kuriththu viLakkam seiga!:-)
From: Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.114) on: Fri Jan 5 17:59:52 EST 2001

Great thread kiru!

aruL,
I was about to suggest what you have suggested in your latest post. You guys are welcome to use all my lyrics in the lyrics competition thread. I stand to learn a lot from the exercise as well.
From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Fri Jan 5 18:49:14 EST 2001

http://www.forumhub.com/tlit/venpa.txt

Above gives the basics of tamil marabukkavithai ilakkaNam.
There was an URL where IR was mentioning how to candham piriththufy a song. But I am unable to find it now.
Anyways, according to Chandra the thAlam/rhythm is inherent in a poem (asai, siir, thaLai). That is why the rAgam is specified for a song but not the thAlam. I think I understand this but I am not able to explain this better. (Udhaya, wanna try ??)
Meanwhile check out www.tamilisai.com.
From: doubter (@ 208.142.210.30) on: Mon Jan 8 18:37:03 EST 2001

kiru

intha viLakkavuraiyai padiththu purinthu koLLa, nam makkaLukku (kuraintha patcham enakku) 4-5 naatkaL aagum.
From: aruLaracan (@ ) on: Tue Mar 13 20:10:03 EST 2001

cilappatikAram - º¢ÄôÀ¾¢¸¡Ãõ - has some interesting information about music of those days. iLangko gives a description of orchestration, hints at counter melodies, ... . the point of relevance here: in the pukArkkANTan:arangkERRakkAtai - Ò¸¡÷ì ¸¡ñ¼õ: «Ãí§¸üÈì¸¡¨¾ - while talking about the lyricist - ¿ýëü ÒÄÅý - he writes:
¨º§Â¡ý Åì¸¢Ã¢ò ¾¢ð¼ò¨¾ ¯½÷ó¾¡íÌ
«¨ºÂ¡ ÁÃÀ¢ý «ÐÀ¼ ¨ÅòÐ
Á¡ü§È¡÷ ¦ºö¾ Å¨º¦Á¡Æ¢ «È¢óÐ
¿¡ò¦¾¡¨Ä Å¢øÄ¡ ¿ýëü ÒÄÅý

meaning: a good poet is one who avoiding improper usage of words sticks to the traditions while choosing words appropriate to the scheme designed by the musician - implying music precedes lyrics!!! IR would be extremely happy to know this (if he already doesn't).

great examples of how the cantams (chandhams) dictate form can be found in kuRRAlakkuRAvanjci - ÌüÈ¡ÄìÌÈÅïº¢: here is an example for thripuda thALam:

À¡ÊÂÁ¨È §¾ÊÂ ¿¡Â¸÷
--ÀýÉ¸÷À½¢ ¿ýÉ¸÷ ¿¡Â¸÷
À¡ÅÄ÷ÁÛì ¸¡ÅÄ÷ ¿¡Â¸÷
--À¾ïºÄ¢ À½¢ ¾¡Ç÷
§¸¡ÊÂÁ¾¢ ÝÊÂ ¿¡Â¸÷
--ÌÆø¦Á¡Æ¢Ò½ ÃÆ¸¢Â ¿¡Â¸÷
ÌÚõÀÄ¡Å¢É¢ø ÜÎÅ Ã¡¦ÁÉ¢ø
-- Ü¼§Ä ¿£ Ü¼¡ö.

just as you recite this poem you could feel the tALam (thALam) in it.

Udhaya: i will get back to your songs a little later.

PS: you need tscii fonts to view the tamil characters. they are available at http://www.tamil.net/projectmadurai/tscii .
From: hihi:-) (@ 134.124.159.71) on: Tue Mar 13 20:15:14 EST 2001

correction: the fonts are available at http://www.tamil.net/tscii .
From: aruLaracan (@ ) on: Mon Sep 30 13:59:48 EDT 2002

kiru: as per your suggestion, i am reviving this post. let's contribute. this time, i will take up udhayA's lyrics and see what we can learn from them.
From: Saketh@Atlanta (@ 130.207.32.174) on: Mon Sep 30 14:58:28 EDT 2002

TFM perumakkale, mikka nandri for this thread
From: Saketh@Atlanta (@ 130.207.32.174) on: Mon Sep 30 15:04:28 EDT 2002

Hoping this thread would be as good as the ones on 'Kannadhasan's lyrics' or 'WCM in TFM' threads. I understand that people who contribute to this thread have to really spend quite some time in order to do what they are doing.

Adharkaga adiyenin nandri. Please continue.
From: bb (@ 206.154.118.2) on: Thu Oct 3 13:28:12 EDT 2002

One of the pre-requisites for a good lyricist is to understand the santham and come up with a tight collection of vallinams or mellinams. VM especially is very good in this aspect. He explained in one interview how he wrote Ottagaththaik kattikkO. initially he wrote something with many mellinams, but then, he realized that the santham requires hard hitting vallinams. You can see that the starting part is filled with ka sa ta tha pa Ra. "Ottakaththaik kattikkO kettiyaaga OttikkO vatta vattap pottukkaari".
a good reference for all thaaLams is thiruppugazh. it has an amazing number of songs set to different thaaLams.
From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Fri Oct 4 14:20:56 EDT 2002

aruLaracan/bb ..I think we need to define cantham, for the laity, before we proceed further.
From: lav (@ 192.39.40.159) on: Fri Oct 11 06:40:34 EDT 2002

Good thread. I remembered my 9th standard tamil teacher who taught tamil ilakkanam so well. And I remember him singing most of the cheyyul rather than reciting it. Though he was not our music teacher, he used to tell us about chandams etc. Though I am not good at contributing, I am happy to find people expressing my ideas. I am looking forward to valuble additions in this thread. Thank you tfm makkal for starting this thread.

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