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Whatever happened to Illayaraja's symphony?

Topic started by Swaminathan N (@ infosys.inf.com) on Wed May 14 15:38:06 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: I'll be stoned to death soon!! (@ 12.217.69.201) on: Wed Mar 19 22:38:30 EST 2003
  
  whereas IR as you rightly pointed out emphasises on tke underlying melody using voice or instrument and brings in the layers of orchestration as a consequence of a natural flow of the main theme.
  
  My guess is this is where IR is making mistake. This kind of approach is good for a Concerto type of composition but not symphony. Giving importance to one solo instrument (usually this guy introduces himself as a hero during first movement!) and letting the orchestra to back and answer the solo instrument's questions is somewhat focussed towards a single entity. Please don't compare 'Emperor Concerto' with our Indian songs. Our guys have to work hard in order to achieve this kind of a full length composition which has complexity, aural
  aesthetics and techniques. Just looking at bits and pieces of interludes is not the right way to judge a composer.
  
  Also remember, IR composed this symphony around 12 years back and this is the time (1989 - 91) where he was very careless in his compositions and gave thousands of junk songs. Hope the symphony's 1st movement does not sound like "pandhalila thongugira podalangaaykku kalla katta mudiyummaa yakkaa yakkaa... pottikada yakkaa yakkaa"
  or "kumthalakkadi (2) paaatuu... ada gumidipoondi goods vandiyila yethu.." !!
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Wed Mar 19 23:01:52 EST 2003
  
  Guys..as far as I know, the orchestra which played the symphony was expecting some raagam influences in the work, but they were surprised it was not obviously indian. I am interpreting this as - a individualistic composition. Re: 1992 and today - I think if IR composed anything today, it would be much more sophisticated. Even his film songs nowadays are more structured.
  
  Re: complexity and single voice - Doesn't a symphony have a 'theme' - the theme does have a character in essence a tune to it, does it not ? This is where, I think, IR will have an edge over other western composers of WCM. His weakness might be lack of experience in building 'totally new' patterns of complexity. But I am a music dunce so would not be talking sense, just guessing. He possibly can do wonders given the opportunity. I am more than impressed with the Lajja BGMs. Please listen to the BGMs of new movies (like azhagi) where the song tunes have been given WCM treatment.
  You guys are talking some really interesting stuff.
  
  
• From: Mumbai Ramki (@ 203.197.24.195) on: Thu Mar 20 00:33:50 EST 2003
  
  great guys ..please discuss such usefull stuff ...
  
  But for people who cannot understand like me ...can u elaborate some terms ...
  
  1.Complexity
  2.Concerto VS Symphony
  3.Counterpoint
  
  
  Please give a very clear explanation of the stuff
  
  
• From: Prashanth (@ 202.54.137.100) on: Thu Mar 20 05:31:31 EST 2003
  
  People!!people!!,
  Have been away for 2 days and the conversation has grown so much??? I agree with "I'll be stoned to death soon!!" to an extent. But not fully, the so called Emperor Concerto is not god himself and dont be so cynical in putting IR down in front of "Emperor Concerto". If u think I am no expert to comment on this, I call in the experts to do it....I contribute to the site www.raajangahm.com. This is a excerpt from an article by Guitar Prasanna abt IR's genius....
  
  “Have you written invertible counterpoint up a tenth?” Raaja (I am taking the liberty to call him affectionately as “Raaja” since he is after all, a “Raaja” in what he does!) has asked me this question a few times– a question I don’t encounter much, at least in India. In an age where most musicians (of course only in India!) spend their time reading the latest software manuals rather than reading books on harmony, counterpoint, orchestration or Carnatic ragas or whatever, Raaja is and has always been an anachronism. I have had several intellectually stimulating musical conversations with Raaja on principles of counterpoint, Bach, Tyagaraja, jazz harmony and much more. (Raaja has often asked me about jazz and I remember how excited Raaja was when I played him great jazz like Charlie Parker and John Coltrane’s ‘Giant Steps’). Raaja’s vast knowledge extends far beyond music. For instance, I have seen him quote passages from “Tirukkural” effortlessly in casual conversation.
  
  In every field of activity, there are a chosen few that transcend their idiom. Let’s face it! Film music is not classical music. By itself, film music as a medium does not have the spiritual depth or artistic dimensions of say, a Tyagaraja pancharatna kriti or a Bach “Musical Offering”. It’s a medium of popular entertainment just the same way pop music is in the west. That DOES NOT however mean that it CANNOT be artistic. (I think readers will get this ‘distinction’ that I am making), it’s just that its scope and purpose is a little different. Raaja has transcended the idiom and brought elements of ‘higher art’ into it while still maintaining the ‘immediate appeal’ that characterizes (and should characterize) a mass medium like film music. It is doubtful if any musician in the world dealing with a popular musical medium (like pop, rock, film music etc) has ever brought in such an immense and breathtaking array of musical vocabulary and has internalized and reflected it in so personal a way. (What can we call Raaja’s music? – Tamil folk melodies meets Carnatic music meets Hindustani music meets 70’s disco music meets Bach meets electronic music meets ……….) What is amazing is that finally it bears a patent/trademark of homegrown Raaja. (It is not Bach, it is not Earth, Wind and Fire, it is not Carnatic music, it is Ilayaraaja.) In my personal opinion, Steely Dan and the later albums of Sting come closest to standing rock solid on musical and artistic sophistication, while still being couched in a ‘commercial’ medium.
  
  I grew up with Raaja’s music and I can clearly see how I can revisit his old songs and find such technical virtuosity in his writing – his unmatched use of chormaticism in ‘Indianish’ melodies, his extensive use of intricate counterpoint, his vast knowledge of Carnatic music, the ‘correctness’ of every chord in his songs and above all the speed with which he composes clearly show that the man is secure, knows exactly what he wants and delivers. Raaja has raised the standards of us, South Indian listeners so much, that there are many of us who never bothered to listen to Hindi songs for e.g.. (we never needed to, right?). He has raised the standards of musicianship to such a high level among studio musicians in Chennai (I realized the huge gulf, when I worked with string players in Bombay for e.g.) that many times I wonder how the musicians even played some of the parts that are there in his music.
  
  I have never heard a guitar even remotely out of tune in Raaja’s songs for example (believe me, that’s very rare in general). I have to make a special mention of Raaja’s use of the electric bass guitar. I have never heard such meticulous written bass parts (its clearly written carefully), as it is in Raaja’s - song after song after song. Mention also to some brilliant acoustic drum work (a lost and ancient art in India) on Raaja’s songs.
  
  I would like to end this article with what Raaja himself told me once (about the limitations of being in the film medium) “Enakku innum niraya ideas irukku. Ithule ellam panna mudiyathu. Ithu Mint Streetille okkanthu Jabam panra mathiri!” (translated as “I have lot more ideas. I may not be able to do all of them in this. It’s like sitting in the middle of Mint Street and meditating”). I am sure we’ll agree that he has meditated exceptionally well on Mint street!..."
  
  Any more proof u need for IR's genius....???
  
  
• From: Mumbai Ramki (@ 203.197.24.195) on: Thu Mar 20 07:01:07 EST 2003
  
  Hello Mr.CTS Prashanth ..
  
  A very good article ..but can u explain the concepts of
  
  
  1.Complexity
  2.Concerto VS Symphony
  3.Counterpoint
  
  people giving higly intellectual article ...which in some ways is good ..but we need to understand them too
  
  
• From: I'll be stoned to death soon!! (@ 12.163.39.254) on: Thu Mar 20 09:46:16 EST 2003
  
  come on guys.. just being technically brilliant is not enough here. BTW I can understand Mr. Prasanna's curiousity over invertible counterpoint (which is already done by Bach) and stuff like that as they are taught in music schools which are exciting to carnatic musicians.
  Moreover IR and Guitar Prassanna will definitely have similar taste as both of them are Indian Guitarists.
  what I'm trying to say here is writing a symphony or any large scale composition is something
  more than showing technical brilliance or chord level achievement.. In this forum I've seen
  many people just talk about chords like majorminor7th, minor 13th chord (confuse innocent
  forum hubbers) and finally say IR has used them. He is Genius!!... He is God!.. We all know
  that guitarists love to experiment on chords and use them in their compositions. But IMHO this
  is not enough for a symphonic composition. I'm not here to hurt IR fans. just want to let them
  know that IR has to do more works to get experianced in WCM field. He should'nt wait for 10 years to release a symphony. He should keep on writing more and more and finally one will click..
  
  Ramki,
  pls. wait.. we are busy quarrelling.. will get back to you soon.
  
  
• From: :) (@ 12.163.39.254) on: Thu Mar 20 10:00:05 EST 2003
  
  Mumbai Ramki,
  pls. go thro this
  http://www.austinsymphony.org/music/index.asp?LT=A
  
  
• From: anand (@ 132.183.203.46) on: Thu Mar 20 10:49:36 EST 2003
  
  
  Music is not math, atleast not for me. For many people its it math. I do enough
  math at work and the reason I turn to music is to get away from work. I hate to be calculative and precise in music, even when I am trying to write something (which is usually a disaster anyways). One must appreciate the element of "complexity" which is a loose word, involved in art, which cannot be measured.
  
  So a piece of music has to appeal to the heart, which is beyond all the technical stuff like counterpoint. We all know many of Illyarajas songs appeal to our hearts. That is what a composer can achieve that a computer cannot.
  
  There is nothing that has moved me more that some of Beethovens compositions, although there is no question about his technical mastery. Listen to the 3rd movement of the 9th, which is the greatest slow movement I have ever heard. Well you must know he hated contrapuntists so much, although he was not incapable of writing fugues and stuff. In fact all his works are filled with contrapuntal textures. Sometimes they just overwhelm you in the middle of a piece.
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Mar 20 14:27:12 EST 2003
  
  which anand is it? is it someone i know? :-)) (the 3rd movement of the 9th seems to give you away!) if you are the same anand: "yes, one can 'quantify' complexity" :-)))
  
  

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