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COPYING - IN TAMIL FILM HISTORY

Topic started by s.senthilkumar (@ 203.197.154.163) on Mon Jan 24 07:23:36 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

i think "copying" is there for a long time in tamil film history.Here we discuss the tamil songs copied from others.

1.Vedha:i know he always go for a hindi tune in his films(mostly for Modern theatres).No alterations! he just copy a full hindi song !

best examble:Manam ennum medai mele(Gil tho ye kulu yahag)

2.MSV: i hear that(from Sujatha's book"Neerkumiligal") "thulluvatho elamai" was a song copied from english to almost all famous indian langages.Is there any other songs MSV copied?

3.Illayaraja:Even the GOD of MUSIC Raja sir did some thing like this.He just used that "I love you"style from BOneyM Sunny for "darling darling"in priya.I have heard a totally same song like "Kanavu kanum valkkai yavum" in Hindi also.(i forgot the film).

and i dont know who is the MD for the song"ehu pal vadiyum mugam! ethai parpathu than sugam".But i heard the same song in an english film.

4.ARR : i was told from my friends that he did copying intelligently.drum beats and some music styels from cassettes like "enigma,ace of base".And the humming before the song "thillana thillana" is a 100%copy from the film"the island of Dr.Mozeru".

5.SA Rajkumar : a lot of help from hindi! best example "mallikai puve malligai puve parthaya" from "didi tera thevaru thevana"

5.DEVA:hee..hee..the master.(better we see how many songs he did on his own instead of seeing how many songs he copied!)

like wise there is a lot of songs are copied from Tamil to Hindi also..

Now its your turn friends....

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: krishnamurthy (@ esboaav.ceatlabs.okstate.edu) on: Wed May 3 18:16:40 EDT 2000
  
  No i dont agree. You can compare any two song and say if its just an influence or a blatant copy. if it had been an influence, u would see the copied style 'blending' into the composed style
  Take for example 'oru kiliyin thanimayile' from poovizhi vaasalile. It has a wonderful intro that reminds u of one of many Bach's 2 part inventions. 'varavu varavu varavu....' - This is Bach. 'oru kiliyin thanimayile' is ilayaraja. It neatly blends into the song.
  'Manam virumbude unnai'...this songs into is totally lifted from one of L.Subramaniam's compositions. Thats a copy because u dont find this 'mood' carried into the song. Its just a cut and paste!
  
  
• From: krishnamurthy (@ esboaav.ceatlabs.okstate.edu) on: Wed May 3 18:19:17 EDT 2000
  
  song's intro - correction
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ daecfp02.sprint.com) on: Wed May 3 18:47:25 EDT 2000
  
  Krishna: My view is similar to that of Krishnamurthy. Most times the intention of the MD becomes obvious whether he has been inspired by a pattern/etc/etc/ versus he's taking the easy way out (viz. copying the heck out of a song). As I visualize it instead of terming a composition as inspiration/copy etc (and getting hung up on definitional items) the experts panel can easily just point out the similarities in two compositions. If the evidence is presented clearly and logically, most average readers/listeners would come to a fairly obvious conclusion. There is always going to be a segment which can't see it, or more so, refuses to see it.
  
  Let me give an example. LSub has a recorded composition in Mohanam (along with a Keerawani+ragamalika compostion)- it's called Inde ...something something. In that he changes the nadai after the charaNam to thisram, chatusram, khanda, misram etc. In a live concert in Kansas City (I have the tape) he has used the same template BUT for an improv in Hamsadhvani for Vatapi GaNapathim (only substituting ni for dha). It is a pretty significant stretch and I felt that as a Classically trained Musician he was giving something less to me - the average Joe Bloe audience. You can choose to call it copy or inspiration. If I play the songs sequentially (more important just the relevant parts) most people will come to my conclusion - that they are similar.
  
  There is also another wrong notion that defining something as Copy is 'subjective'. It is definitely not so. If it was, we would not have 'laws' about it and cases and settlements associated with it.
  
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ daecfp02.sprint.com) on: Wed May 3 18:56:38 EDT 2000
  
  Krishna: No! I do not believe in democracy (on this issue). All you need is a post like " Chinna Chinna Aasai (ARR) is copied from Chinna Chinna vaNNa kuyil (IR)" (better believe it, there exists a post like this) and any serious (read knowledgeable) surfer will start treating this effort as a joke.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.211) on: Wed May 3 19:05:34 EDT 2000
  
  Krishna: I can sense your concern that bias should not creep into judging similarity between two songs. Most of the people I have mentioned in the panel (Read NOT ALL) have exhibited this kind of objective opinions despite their personal preferences. Our effort is not to categorize the DFers into biased and non-biased individuals. I believe that we can still come to an objective conclusion even if some of the participants are not objective.
  
  
• From: Krishnamurthy (@ esboaas.ceatlabs.okstate.edu) on: Wed May 3 19:48:22 EDT 2000
  
  Even 'anjali anjali pushpanjali' is COPIED from a malayalam song composed by ilayaraja. Anyone can tell that it was just by listening to it for the first time.
  
  
• From: Krishnamurthy (@ esboaas.ceatlabs.okstate.edu) on: Wed May 3 19:53:20 EDT 2000
  
  So my point is - its very easy to identify a copied song.
  When i was seqencing Ninnukkori varnam from agni natchathiram, I was amazed how this song had a classical BeeGees 'Saturday Night Fever' touches in it. Its beautifully adapted to a carnatic song. yet there is no copying there. Just a transformation.
  
  
• From: Krishnamurthy (@ esboaas.ceatlabs.okstate.edu) on: Wed May 3 19:53:30 EDT 2000
  
  So my point is - its very easy to identify a copied song.
  When i was seqencing Ninnukkori varnam from agni natchathiram, I was amazed how this song had a classical BeeGees 'Saturday Night Fever' touches in it. Its beautifully adapted to a carnatic song. yet there is no copying there. Just a transformation.
  
  
• From: krishnamurthy (@ esboaas.ceatlabs.okstate.edu) on: Wed May 3 20:08:34 EDT 2000
  
  Dont read me as comparing the two MDs. I dont want to get into that, and Iam tired of it in all DFs. I just wanna say how copying is different from inspiration.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221) on: Wed May 3 20:22:44 EDT 2000
  
  guys,
  pl. use the foll link to an old thread as a database for collecting copied songs. i had to dig this one out.
  
  http://newtfmpage.com/forum/2318.20751.9.html
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Wed May 3 21:12:03 EDT 2000
  
  Okay, I have got Khaled's song 'bakhta' from Nssi Nssi encoded as .rm file in
  http://members.tripod.com/~kbkaran/bakhta.rm
  I think this is the starting point for 'thangath thAmarai magalE, vA arugE'. I will let the experts decide on that.
  I have not provided links anywhere else, for fear of copyright violations. Also, I have edited it for 1 minute. It shouldnt matter because similarity ends in the prelude itself.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Wed May 3 21:24:58 EDT 2000
  
  Also available as http://members.tripod.com/~kbkaran/bakhta.ram for streaming purposes.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ sttl6400gw3poola51.sttl.uswest.net) on: Wed May 3 21:27:50 EDT 2000
  
  the beat cycle is completly different.
  arabic songs sounds like a 7/8 cycle,
  thanga thamari is 4/4
  the first 3 notes are sa re2 ga1
  
  in the arbic song.. chord progression goes gminor and shifts to cm.
  
  thanga thamari has lot of major minor chords shifting, lots of variation, I dont think that they sound a link except for the first 3 sa re2 ga1, cannot be called as copy.
  
  The starting point uses cow bell sound migth make you think that they are alike.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ sttl6400gw3poola51.sttl.uswest.net) on: Wed May 3 21:30:32 EDT 2000
  
  typo link=alike
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Wed May 3 21:45:17 EDT 2000
  
  Yeah, yeah beat is different then the tunes also is different. I dont think it is the cow bell sound alone that makes it sound alike. The instrument arrangement is the same - the instruments used and the way they are used. So is this a mere coincidence ? Or a conscious attempt to escape the 'copy' clause ?
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ sttl6400gw3poola51.sttl.uswest.net) on: Wed May 3 21:52:54 EDT 2000
  
  but for me it not strike a bell or both sound the same, there are many differences
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Wed May 3 22:26:09 EDT 2000
  
  I agree and trust your points, Srikanth. Okay, whenever I hear stuff like this I will bring it to the experts' attention. But I dont think it is good for ARR or any MD to have more things like this coming up at all :)
  
  
• From: ECHO (@ hobbiton.org) on: Wed May 3 23:02:33 EDT 2000
  
  kiru, slightly looks similar but definitely not a copy.
  ok, another issue , who copied from whom?
  VK's "madhanorchavam" from "sathurangam" released in 1978. KennyG's "Havana" from "The Moment" released in 1996. I'll be proud of VK if it is proved that a song copied by KennyG from TFM. (or both copied from somewhere????). Check with Havana.
  http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?userid=4F674JPM5P&sourceid=00108337770690814485&bfdat=05%25252D02%25252D2000%252B20%25253A13%25253A18&srefer=&ean=78221893527
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ sttl6400gw3poola51.sttl.uswest.net) on: Wed May 3 23:58:23 EDT 2000
  
  kiru, I agree doubts are bounds to come
  thanks to the current tamil film music std, we have been converted to COPs...always in a doubt state of mind, enjoying music has taken back seat
  
  
• From: Athi (@ proxy1.spaceproxy.com) on: Thu May 4 02:52:58 EDT 2000
  
  The idea of exposing people like Deva who
  earns their bread and rice only by copying other’s music is welcome. But the way in which people here have been trying to execute this idea is not very good. It creates many suspicions and doubts.
  
  1.).How can a small group of people decide what is copied song and what is not? A large community of people and TFM fans have to decide that. What is the credibility of this expert groupe? Most of them are
  self proclaimed and self certified musicians and experts. Each person praises the other and recommends other person into the group. and the that selected group makes themselves into an expert panel. Isnt this funny and ridiculous? I don’t really trust these people rajaG, srikanth, MS and all the names that were suggested. They praise each other and form one group to pass judgements on others. They always ridicule any one else and call them senseless, no music
  knowledge etc etc and makes them shut up. Even when Krisha pointed out his doubts on this expert group, he was told that “I dont believe in democracy in such issues”.
  This itself raises doubts about the expert panel.
  
  2.)Why should this supposedly expert
  group be anonymous? This raises doubts
  about the intentions. Any investigation without
  transparency and open scrutany
  is useless. If the expert
  group members are scared about their returning
  to India, let them not be in this expert group.
  They appoint themselves to expert group, and
  then want anonymity. Its funny. Masking the
  identity creates many doubts.
  
  3.)The motives of the self proclaimed musicians
  and experts is very suspicious.
  Copying has been going on
  in tamil movie music for a long time. Right from day#1, deva was copying…. Ivlo naal illadha akkarai ivangaluku ipo epdi vandadhu? Why was this group which used to write many lines in this newtfmpage and shut up many other fans, start
  such a thing only now? If they are really concerned, why didn’t they do it earlier? All they want now is cheap publicity by
  calling each other as experts, make some group and try to act like police.
  
  4.)If tamil movie fans find any copied songs, let them point them out like arun did and let everyone discuss it here. This expert group,
  self-certification, group-formation, mutual praising, ridiculing everyone else is all bad.
  
  This is a free discussion forum and please
  do not pollute this place. For asala nakala, calling yourself as expert group and for passing judgement on others.. please
  have your own e-mail lists or go to other sites and do such things there.
  
  Athi
  
  
• From: murli (@ stealth.kirenet.com) on: Thu May 4 04:11:03 EDT 2000
  
  Sorry for pushing this point just one more time (I promise). Unless someone takes the scoresheet of the accused song and compare it with the original song note by note, all other evaluations that will be made are going to be just opinions. And opinions are generally made based on biases. Hence, my skepticism on selecting an expert panel which legitimizes (or officialize, if that is a word)a select few's opinions over the rest of the universe.
  
  I agree with you Krishna 100%. you are very correct
  
  MS (@ 129.252.22.9) on: Wed May 3 17:43:32 EDT 2000. very much true. There are people like srikanth who can do it.
  
  whydo you people certify each other
  and grouping yourself?
  
  Go Athi, I fully agree with you. I have also seen these people in that 'expert group' being highly biased. They are not suitable to certify copies, or be in any judgemental position.
  
  srikanth, rajaG ->> Stop your dominance here and let everyone discuss. You guys always want to force your view and snub others. and others like MS stop your jalra and let democarcy previal here.
  
  
  

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