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Jazz based compositions of Ilaiyaraja

Topic started by pinchi srinivasan (@ 1cust17.tnt6.nyc3.da.uu.net) on Thu Mar 5 10:54:56 EST 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Can any one list Jazz based /Jazz like songs of IR especially for people who think only ARR is the one who brought Jazz based songs in TMF.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Fri Mar 20 10:08:47 EST 1998
  
  Jazz is probably one of the most difficult music forms to appreciate. I have heard a lot of Miles Davis and have failed to appreciate anything in his music. On the other hand Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald are outstanding ! I am addicted to both their music. Keith Jarrett is one of the greatest living pianists (not just my opinion). I really enjoy some of his albums (Live at the Blue Note, Standards in Norway his ensemble music) but I just can't understand head or tail of his highly acclaimed 'Personal Mountains'.
  
  John McLaughlin is considered a really great guitarist but I can't understand him. OTOH, Al Di Meola - a session musician - turned composer is OK. I love Wes Montgomery's guitar work and his successor George Benson.
  
  Jazz is music of performers. Composed music like IR's music and ARR's music can never be Jazz music - at the most - influences here and there.
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Fri Mar 20 14:10:12 EST 1998
  
  Hi Rajaram and Pal,
  
  I was expecting these discussions to come forth in Tamil Film Music Cateogories thread. How about making that thread a permanent topic and contributing opinions there ??
  
  I have similar doubts as Rajaram seems to be having. I am not sure on what to focus on these songs. If it is like different kind of sounds and harmony etc then Pal what do you feel about Chandirarum Sooriyarum in Avatharam ??
  
  I have put in a similar question in the other thread too. Have a look at it Rajaram and Pal.
  
  Mux
  
  
• From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Fri Mar 20 15:19:50 EST 1998
  
  Chandirarum Sooriyarum in Avatharam IMO is basically a folk song with a baroque style orchestration. This is the song which resurrected my faith in RAjA's music.
  
  
• From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Fri Mar 20 17:51:26 EST 1998
  
  pg. allow me to kill your faith in rAjA. I happened to watch a movie of the 60's
  (about the famous trial in the german town where many powerful Nazis were punished).
  The tile was very very very much like chandhirarum sUriyarum. ocassionally I do do some
  blasphemy:-)
  
  Probably it was just the (baroque - a quote from "Classical Music for Dummies": baroque is
  pronounced as in "if it ain't baroque don't fix it". :-)) ) style, or it was
  just a coincidence.
  
  
• From: pal (@ 128.101.145.88) on: Fri Mar 20 22:07:24 EST 1998
  
  oops! oru posting paNNittu veettukku poittu vantha old responses kku poiduthu!!
  :-)
  
  first raja's q on 'wavering' rhythm pattern of jazz comp.
  As I have told already ( may not be clearly ) jazz as a music form doesnt share all the charecteristics I mentioned in all the compositions...
  It largely depends on the musician AND the time of composition. In general, jazz tend to convey the exhileration and joy.
  
  about the alapana & jazz : again this aspect IMO applies to only keith jarrot atleast as far as my knowledge. But, the philosophy of composition or the psychology of development of a theme or mood of a player largely ( again only IMHO ) resmbles the evolving or describing attitude of alapana in ICM.
  
  
• From: pal (@ 128.101.145.88) on: Fri Mar 20 22:12:51 EST 1998
  
  Hi pg,
  
  you seem to be exposed to jazz a lot. great! can you explain us ( in a way we understand ) what did ( and didnt ) you appreciate in these musicians. we seem to have keith jarrot in common. as for I have his german concert and concert at la scala. Both are great and in a way addictive!! :-)
  I agree with on armstrong and a whole lot of present day american jazz wind ensembles that are highly infuenced by him.
  
  
• From: pal (@ 128.101.145.88) on: Fri Mar 20 22:20:03 EST 1998
  
  Hi mukund ( why did you change r name? I am used to calling you mux ),
  
  The problem with discussing about musical forms related to TFM is that nothing is purely followed by musicians here in TFM. more often many of the songs fall somewhere in between.
  
  Atleast regarding music forms, ARR tries to stick to it. ( may the other way of telling it is that he is so good at 'mimic'ing that... poduma IR fans? )
  
  chandiranum sooriyanum paatta naan ore ru thadava thaan keattean. I couldnt help feeling pity for IR. There is soooooooo much of hard work at the background which has not resulted in the overall message of the song.
  
  that somehow reminded me of a maattukaran singing in a opera.
  
  
• From: Mux (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Mon Mar 23 19:30:13 EST 1998
  
  Hi Pal,
  
  I have introduced my original nickname Mux to the forum in another thread. You can address me so if you feel quite comfortable.
  
  ("The problem with discussing about musical forms related to TFM is that nothing is purely followed by musicians here in TFM. more often many of the songs fall somewhere in between")
  
  I understand your point. I had my questions only because atleast in DF there seems to so many threads with Jazz figuring in the discussion.
  
  As for Chandirarum.. song, I found that my opinion of the song was very inadequate in its judgement after just the first hearing. I have been throughly captivated after hearing for probably 5 or 6 times. IMHO, I think it would fit the situation very well. (I have not seen the movie though).
  
  Arularasan and pg: What is baroque ?
  
  Mux
  
  
• From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Tue Mar 24 15:32:29 EST 1998
  
  Mux :
  
  Western Classical Music can be divided into 3 broad periods : baroque (Bach/Handel/Vivaldi), classical (mozart/beethoven) & romantic (tchaikovsky/schumann/strauss). Baroque was the period when wc music consisted of heavy / showy ornamentation. Baroque was once considered derisive; now it is just a period/style of music. Concertos/sonatas were the main music forms of this period. (No symphonies). Symphony as a music form started and ended in the classical period. In the Romantic period the main music forms were symphonic poems (!), ballets etc. IR has been very much influenced by baroque music; in fact he says his favourite composer is Bach. Ironic that he composed the symphony which is not a baroque music form !
  
  
• From: pal (@ 128.101.145.88) on: Tue Mar 24 19:20:01 EST 1998
  
  hi pg,
  
  the second ( classical ) period is also known as 'era of vienese composers'. Even today, writing a symphony is regarded as the peak of a composer's creative abilities.
  
  In IR's case, what is not clear is this. Even pure classical composers and veteran composers in the past have taken soooo much time and effort to write a symphony. Typically the theme and developments are initially tried as concertoes. But as the years go it developes into a symphony. Even after the premier many symphonies are rewritten often. A symphony is not ( and humanly impossible to be ) a 'one shot' affair like a movie sound track.
  
  My information on raja's work is also something similar. Looks like he was not satisfied with what came out of premier. Naturally he grabbed the master tapes and must be doing his home work. It might very well take a few more 'complete' performances before it becomes an 'IR accepted' symphony.
  
  On the other hand, baroque style of comps are easy to try in a studio and allows easy rework. In fact, IMO IR has done mostly baroque kinda stuff before his symphony. And one cannot fail to notice the 'magical' change in his comps after that. The overall color ( intha poovukkoru arasan ), and intricacy of orchestrations ( the above mentioned avataram song ) etc.
  
  any difference in openions ?
  
  
• From: kitcha (@ dhcp232-188.eel.ufl.edu) on: Fri Mar 27 17:42:05 EST 1998
  
  Good god!! This thread is a revelation...
  
  Pal and pg...you guys seem to know the best...
  
  I always thought "Ram Bam.." in Michael,Madan..
  was a jazz composition. And also "Vaanam enna mel irukke.." from Vetri Vizha.
  
  Am i right??
  
  
• From: pal (@ c45208.ece.umn.edu) on: Wed Apr 1 16:13:29 EST 1998
  
  Hi kitch,
  
  ram bum bum is a rock 'n roll type... but as I have mentioned sometime back, these two forms meet somewhere.
  
  I am not sure about the vaaam enna melirukku...
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 161.225.48.3) on: Thu Apr 9 14:35:58 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  
  Jazz is extempor music. Jazz musicians play it at their own will but follow a strict set of rules.
  It is more like our carnatic. The musicians can sings notes of thier choice but as long as they stay in the raga and tala.
  Similiary Jazz music follows that.
  A.R. has tried real jazz in iruvar,
  Venila Venila song. This is a real jazz.
  
  The bass and the beat play a vital role in Jazz.
  Chords progression in jazz is very vital.
  chords like some nineths , Major suspended etc.. can be heard.
  
  Coltren is one of the oldies who was very good at jazz.
  
  IR has not done much of jazz.
  Just talking few words does not become english
  language.
  Similary just touch of few jazz chords does not become jazz -- there is no 100% jazz score from Raja.
  Only AR has tried it in Iruvar
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: rajesh (@ erchs100.nortel.com) on: Thu Apr 9 17:05:28 EDT 1998
  
  The song 'Ninukori Varnam' from 'Agni Natchathiram' is a pure jazz score from IR. And there are quite a few more.
  
  
• From: badri raghavan (@ 206.103.12.125) on: Fri Apr 17 00:58:29 EDT 1998
  
  hi there!
  
  i am near zero in western music but from what i understand is that jazz is a form of music where only blowing instruments are used. is this right?
  
  if this is so, then there are several compositions of IR and ARR which have a fairly high influence of flute or sax or nadhaswaram (indian contribution to jazz).
  
  i would like to know more
  
  
• From: Ravi (@ envy.cs.umass.edu) on: Fri Apr 17 09:01:43 EDT 1998
  
  badri: Take a look at the TFM categories thread and read the old responses. Jazz has been discussed in detail there and presently Western Classical music is being talked off.
  
  
• From: raja m (@ draco.eisi.com) on: Tue Apr 21 10:46:33 EDT 1998
  
  An interesting thread. Keep it coming guys..
  
  
• From: Sevagan (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Tue Apr 13 08:56:54 EDT 1999
  
  Revive
  
  
• From: Ambleen (@ ad202.166.9.21.magix.com.sg) on: Wed Nov 10 10:36:00 EST 1999
  
  Did anybody notice ARR's use of hollywoodian style of chrous BGM in Mudhalvan? To be more precise,listen to The Omen or First Knight by Jerry Goldsmith.
  
  Also, has anybody noticed how maestro John Williams' score towards the end celebration in Phantom Menace resembles that of our maestro's many chorous works?
  
  The above is just to quote but one.
  
  IR is truly a genius indeed. Amen.
  
  
• From: observer (@ ) on: Mon Apr 2 01:01:21 EDT 2001
  
  Pretty unfortunate that one of the greatest forms of music hasn't been dwelled upon enough by one of the greatest (arguably *the* greatest) composers of TFM.
  
  As far as I know, "vennila vennila vennilave" is the only pure jazz song of TFM.
  
  

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