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Ilayaraja copy adiththa paadalgal

Topic started by Rajaraman (@ 192.122.136.148) on Sat Jul 26 05:27:10 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Mr.Kuzapam (@ 206.139.13.152) on: Fri Mar 19 16:02:32 EST 1999
  
  Mr.Madan :
  What to say - do you think I Dont know the difference between a raga and a copy.
  
  In How2Nameit - he plays preludiam in Emajor 100% the same score, he tries to do some Indian stuff on to the bach's score. Good, technically you cannot call this as copy as IR safly puts bach's name in the cover,
  But in Chatriyan he has copied total score from Sound of music, he almost uses the same chord progressions ..if this is not copy --- what Deva or Arr does is not a copy.
  
  Do not scribble something in Anger, IR also copied, you people should stop accusing anyone others MDs as copy cats.
  
  why bring in Ramanujam and other charactors into out fight.
  
  
• From: Swami (@ cacher-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se) on: Fri Mar 19 16:30:20 EST 1999
  
  allo Mr.Confusion,
  Accept, that had IR copied (unga bashai) those two songs. Seri, out of 750+ films U can point only 2 songs and ponder over that? Taking an avg of 5 songs/film, it totals up to 3750 odd songs. Come up with something new man.
  
  Ms.Geetha,
  As Raj said Mr.Madan was trying to make a point. Doen'st matter if the ragam was wrong. Athuvam Sri Thiagarajar property thane?? To err is human thayeee.
  
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Mar 19 17:17:19 EST 1999
  
  Swami, Ragas are no one's property... plzzz.. There can be a million songs based on a single raga. These songs in same raga might sound similar, but can be very different depending on the creativity of the composer!! There are multiple songs based on a single raga, but they cant be called copies/lifts or even inspirations!!
  
  And your argument of proportions / fractions of songs (2 songs out of million!!) doesnt sound logical to me.. Oru dhadavai thirudinaalum, 100 dhadavai thirudinaalum, thiruttu thiruttu dhaan..., thirudanai thirudan-nu dhaan koopida mudiyum!! of course, there is a difference between pickpocketer and a gangster, but they all come under the same category of "thieves"!!
  
  Mr.Kuzhapam's main contention is that IR is also a thief!! The degree of "thirutu" might differ across MDs, but the fact remains that IR is no Mr.Clean!
  
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Fri Mar 19 17:24:35 EST 1999
  
  Thanks rajaG and Geetha,
  
  I am now clear about Aagaya Vennilave.
  
  
• From: Swami (@ cacher-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se) on: Fri Mar 19 17:30:36 EST 1999
  
  chandy,
  IR has never claimed that he's original. He had indeed accepted the fact that he's recycling th 7 swaras. So who are we to comment more. If IR is a thief (according to you) I would call ARR a looter.
  
  Origan source code yezhutha mudiyatha pothu, origan score patthi pesaroom. kali kalamada
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Mar 19 17:52:11 EST 1999
  
  Swami, Recycling 7 swaras is what anyone whos doing music would do!!!! If he doesnt do that, what he produces will not be called music!!! Dont give global comments and digress. In all fairness, can you call IR as Mr.Clean or not????
  
  
  
• From: SM (@ nat01smurugap.sgum.mci.com) on: Fri Mar 19 17:53:42 EST 1999
  
  Swamy,
  
  Appa Deva?:-))
  
  
• From: SM (@ nat01smurugap.sgum.mci.com) on: Fri Mar 19 18:00:27 EST 1999
  
  Chandy,
  
  Please don't call IR as a thief and all. This is just a request. It is by no means fair to call a genius of a composer like this. Kali kaalam!!! A person who has given such brilliant music for the last 2 decades is now termed as a 'thief'. If you feel he has lifted/plagiarised, please try to prove that and avoid using words like 'thief'. Aiya, avaroda musicukku namma (atleast all IR fans) kadan pattirukkom. Adha rasikkalainnaalum parava illai. Neenga ippadi thiruppi kodukka vendaam.
  
  
• From: Clarify - a proud HCIRF (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Fri Mar 19 18:02:58 EST 1999
  
  Kuzapam .... pottukkal pottalum and En jodi Manjakurivi are not original? Give us precise sources and tell us what was copied ... the whole song, the rhytm alone or the tune alone etc. This forum is fast filling up with people who accuse IR just to spite his fans.
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Mar 19 18:09:16 EST 1999
  
  Hey SM,
  
  Dont interpret things differently and put words into my mouth. I have great regards for IR and ARR and all that blah blah. I was just clarifying a point made by Mr.Kuzhapam. And if you notice my posting, i said "its Kuzhapam's main contention that IR is also a thief...", and it was interpreted by Swami as me calling IR a thief.
  
  My point is that NEITHER IRR or ARR (forget Deva, he isnt worth being called a MD.. hes a MC, music-copier!!) can be called Mr.Clean! There are degrees of lifting and both IR and ARR have done that... be it a complete song, or a stanza.
  
  chandy
  
  
• From: SM (@ nat01smurugap.sgum.mci.com) on: Fri Mar 19 18:38:00 EST 1999
  
  Hey Chandi,
  
  Don't get tensed. If you had not called IR as a thief, then I apologize for addressing my posting to you. It was the following posting of yours that made me to think that you had called IR like that.
  
  > And your argument of proportions / fractions of > songs (2 songs out of million!!) doesnt sound
  > logical to me.. Oru dhadavai thirudinaalum, 100
  > dhadavai thirudinaalum, thiruttu thiruttu
  > dhaan..., thirudanai thirudan-nu dhaan koopida
  > mudiyum!! of course, there is a difference
  > between pickpocketer and a gangster, but they
  > all come under the same category of "thieves"!!
  
  You have mentioned the word thieves and you have not given any hint that Mr.Kuzhapam's contention was this. I can understand that was just an analogy and my posting was referring to this exactly - even for an analogy don't refer to IR's inspirations as theft. Hope you are clear now.
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.170) on: Fri Mar 19 19:04:47 EST 1999
  
  SM,
  
  I was addresing swami's argument which read "out of 750+ films U can point only 2 songs and ponder over that?"! Even if 2 songs are shown to be lifted, its enough to prove that IR is NOT Mr.Clean!!
  
  Whether it was a large-scale inspiration or small scale 2-3 line lifts or the interludes, these would also qualify to make a MD non-clean!! Theres no point in saying "only 2 songs", or "these 2-lines", "2 out of zillion songs", "or 0.01% of the song".. even this small %age is enough to make a MD non-clean!!
  
  Repeatedly some 2-3 songs are being mentioned in this thread, one prominent one being darling darling darling (priya)... many people have mentioned this song, but I havent found any strong rebuttals. The issue is still inconclusive!!
  
  
  
• From: SM (@ nat01smurugap.sgum.mci.com) on: Fri Mar 19 19:33:09 EST 1999
  
  But Chandy,
  
  Someone had mentioned that IR's greatest inspiration is Bach. IR himself says that he is a great fan of Bach. But would inspirations alone qualify to make a MD 'non-clean'? As you said even if 2-3 songs are lifted, the MD may be called 'non-clean'. But in case of IR, since the percentage is so less, I feel they can be mere coincidences. (Since, I am a 0 as far as technical aspects of a song are concerned, I can't say whether it is a lift or an inspiration also)
  
  
• From: SRK (@ nova7.cs.wisc.edu) on: Fri Mar 19 21:28:02 EST 1999
  
  Mr. Kuzapam: That piece in HTNI you talk about is the "Bouree" classical guitar piece by Bach - I've never heard it being called preludiam in E Major except in this forum. That song in Chatriyan cannot by any means be called a copy of "Raindrops and roses.." of Sound of music (for heaven's sake, no one is going to believe your statements unless you are more specific).
  
  As for your "thalaivar" MSV, please refer to "MSV's limitations" thread in the archives to find a list of his inspirations from Hindi film music. Let us see if you can accpet those gracefully.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ 206-80-180.ipt.aol.com) on: Fri Mar 19 21:46:54 EST 1999
  
  Chandy and Mr.Kuzhapam:
  IR and ARR and Deva and everybody else has copied music. But only IR created some of his own. What do you mean by percentages don't count ? That's the oldest trick in the book to escape from an argument. You mean the FACT that IR copied 4 soungs and created 4000 new ones does not mean anything !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
  IT certainly does mean something when you consider that fact that his so-called peers have copied more than 50% of their songs. ARR and Deva live on borrowed glory. Darling, darling..and HTNI added nothing to IR's glory. His glory comes from his own, original creations. Everybody has a right to criticize, I accept. When ARR and Deva are criticized, we take care to substantiate our criticisms. And those who fail to do so are laughed at by others (just like I am laughing my head off at your warped idea of theft). But please don't be so petty as to think that you have achieved something by calling IR a thief !!!! You make it obvious that you put IR, DEVA and ARR on par because all of them have copied. Of the three only IR did not depend on copying to boost or sustain his career. His theft is more like the michievious theft of a single toffee from a candy store - a single tennis ball from a sports store - a single apple from a fruit store. ARR buys it wholesale and passes it off as his own whereas Deva sends in a platoon to clean out the store lock, stock and barrel. Thiruttu thiruttu thaan. While the first offence is a misdemeanour, the second one is fraud and the third is call BURGLARY !!!!
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ 206-80-180.ipt.aol.com) on: Fri Mar 19 21:56:39 EST 1999
  
  Ok. Let's be honest. I was anything but laughing when I wrote the last post :-(
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Sat Mar 20 10:23:48 EST 1999
  
  Srinath: Appadi podu Raasa..:)
  I think too much has been talked about Raja copying without any hint of substantiation. I said this once before in this thread...I reiterate ...can anyone honestly sit down and compile a list of songs that have been proved to be lifted by Raja? I laid down this gauntlet threee days back...still no one has taken it up..Why?, I paused to think. I guess its because the list is going to be embarassingly small, and even the so-called copies- Let me help you, even though it doesnt please me to do so- Kanavu Kaanum, Darling-Darling were forced down by BM and PA.
  
  You might ask "Can not the same be said for ARR and Deva?". I would like you to understand the difference. In Raja's case, I dont think he was enticed by the carrots -like, it is not that by copying one song of Beatles(or whoever it was who were said to have originated Darling-Darling..I am blissfully ignorant:)), Raja hoped to gain in name and fame. The producer of the movie, who is ssaid to have insisted on that particular song being copied, was the producer who gave him a break in TFM. Probably, he couldnt turn him down for emotional reasons. Secondly, Kanavu kaanum was forced down Raja's throat by BM, who seems to be quite influential with Raja(Probably,Raja has a good opinion about BM's taste in music) and also, he has been very loyal to Raja all these days , even after Raja's supposed Fall, so I am inclined to think it was again a copy necessitated by Raja's personal equation with BM. Granted, that itself is not becoming of Raja's standards but I think this much leeway can be given to a great like him.
  
  Whereas, you cannot say the same of Deva and ARR. I try hard not to accuse them of copies because honestly, I have no idea whether they do. I have never heard the well-known-in-DF Alban's beat samples etc. But it is a widely-accepted fact that they do lift, especially Deva. I wouldnt let my ignorance excuse him :). Now, why would they do it? Does MR specifically go to ARR and say "Hey! Look here , I gave you a break in TFM. So, copy this beat sample from xxx and reproduce it " ?
  
  No, ARR is known to get inputs from the director as to the story, settings etc., go into a seclusion and then come up with the score. Totally independent of the director. So, who is to be blamed if he copies? himself.(That 'h' in himelf was deliberate:)). So, who is to be blamed i f Deva copies? himself.
  
  But what is my point? Ah!Yes! You guys say "Because Raja copied song X , even if ti is only one song, he is as much to be blamed as others". But I say that the only instances you have quoted for this have proved only Raja's personal weaknesses(Like, accepting BM and PA's specific request to 'copy' specific songs. It is like you can blame him for allowing them to dirty his professional reputation but it is preposterous if you have only these instances to quote and in the same breath bracket him with ARR and D).
  
  
  So, come up with a list that has sufficient ammunition to 'discredit' Raja. AND when you do, take care to prove it. Unless you do it, this whole thrad is pointless. And that is something that amazes me....is there any otehr thread that has 20 pages of old responses and TWO years in history discussing only 3 Songs?!!!
  
  (And this DF is supposed to be a Raja-Coffee-House:))
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy18.ykt.prodigy.net) on: Sun Mar 21 12:46:20 EST 1999
  
  Srinath :Arr lives by copying, being a musician I did not expect from you.
  This is what I dont like with IRs fans, they are just blindfolded by thier blind IR's worship,
  frankly, Arr has created some good stuff, he has raised the std of TFM,
  
  I went thru all postings of KuzapamJi, as chandy puts Kuzapam wants to say is IR is not Mr.Clean. Yes , I agree to that,
  simply, IR fans are not ready to hear arr, just for the reason he was responsible for IR's downfall. Open you ears little wide, you can hear many creative things from Arr,
  
  Btw: Raj Nalave jalra adikeringa.
  
  Swami:If someone accepts that they copy, it does not become right.
  
  

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