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Ilayaraja copy adiththa paadalgal

Topic started by Rajaraman (@ 192.122.136.148) on Sat Jul 26 05:27:10 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-5.il.us.ibm.net) on: Fri Mar 5 07:56:28 EST 1999
  
  BharathiRaja - did not come up because of his skill, just came up beacuse of Raja.
  
  Mani Rathanam : Does not have any skills his growth was due to Raja.
  
  (there are people who thought the other way)
  
  Raj simply Thangala, too much
  
  According to me many directors lifted Raja, atha avar just like that maranaduvitar.
  
  
  
• From: raja (@ ws-209-201-91-239.icon.com) on: Fri Mar 5 08:22:58 EST 1999
  
  Shankar:
  
  As far as I know - Naan Yen Pirandhen was released before IR appeared in the tfm scene - I may be wrong..
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Mar 5 10:25:40 EST 1999
  
  Raj and all those die-hard-IR-admirers:
  
  I'm afraid you are going overboard in your adulation of IR. IR was only ONE of the supporting pillars fo mani ratnam, and bharathi raja.. they are all masters in their own right. But, I do agree that mike-mohan, (G)ramarajan and few others owe a rise in their career graphs to IR.. But dont attribute every RISE in the TF world to IR.. thats taking things too far.
  
  One of the blatant's lifts of IR is a thyagaraja kriti `Thulasi Thala' - he has included it in his How to Name it (?), which also reappears in Veedu.. And he has the gutts to call himself as its composer!!!! I dont deny IR is "a" genius, but that doesnt make him as "THE" genius!
  
  chandy
  
  
• From: kooththan (@ keno.pmc-vacc.com) on: Fri Mar 5 12:05:55 EST 1999
  
  Chandy,
  
  "One of the blatant's lifts of IR is a thyagaraja kriti `Thulasi Thala'"
  
  intha uNmaya neengala kandu pidicheengala?
  
  You should not have wasted your time. Because, if you look at the title of this piece you will see Raja has called it 'the chamber welcomes thyagarajah'.
  
  He did not copy. He has said about this piece that all he did was to was compare and contrast the thygarajah piece with one of Beethovan's or Mazart's (I foget which) compositions. Therefore, he did not 'have the gutts' to say it is his own. You obviously didn't have the time to read the title of the piece.
  
  The are also other pieces in that album with names like 'I met Beetjovan in my living room' and on Nothing But Wind there's a piece called 'Mozart I love you'. These were inspirations too, I assume, and Raja have given the credit where it belongs.
  
  Be more sure of your claims before you post them, this will save you some embarassment and us some irritation.
  
  Talking about lifts though, how about 'Darling Darling Darling' from Priya ? Isn't it the same as 'Sunny' by Boney-M?
  
  ....later
  
  
• From: Mr.KUZAPAM (@ 206.139.13.152) on: Fri Mar 5 12:40:43 EST 1999
  
  How to name 50-60% were inspired scores,
  eg:preludiam in EMajor was just lifted.
  If tom & D and harry does this it becomes copy, if ir does it, we are forced to call it Inspirations.
  Nalla katha...
  
  Btw: I do not know any srikant, my name is kumar, aka kuzapam.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Fri Mar 5 14:51:02 EST 1999
  
  Mr Kuzapam,
  I think you are really in a Kuzapam. Whats this 'Prelude in EMajor' ? If you are talking about How to Name it or Nothing But Wind, IR has specifically done things in a particular composer's style or in the case of HTNI he has used the exact scores of Bach (Violin Partita III) in the composition. All these are explained in the CD liner notes.
  
  First understand what he is trying to do. In HTNI he is just trying to bring out the commonalities between Western Classical music and Indian music. This has been his philosophy and he has made a career in using WCM in TFM (whether the audience is aware or not). You would note that we have to look to the west for polyphony/harmony for adding body/granduer to music which is much required in movies for the impressive sound effects.
  
  It is really sad that he is compared to ARR (not the is bad) and Deva. IR is a composer/music director others are just songmakers.
  
  It is highly insincere of the intellectual elite in India to not give IR his due credit.
  
  Re: Mani Ratnam and BR. In the case of Mani Ratnam I disagree that he is a creative person. I agree he has good taste/aesthetics and much much smarter than the runaway-from-the-village directors in Tamil Film World. Songs/Music have definitely helped him. Same with BharathiRaja but he is a very creative person IR just buttressed his strengths.
  
  IR's problems with directors is that not all of them have the sense of morality that IR pursues (especially in female relationships). So he does not respect them. Still I think IR should not be judgemental. But who said he is a perfect human being ??
  
  In India/TN we attack a person saying he is not professionally/talent wise good. When that gets disproved we attack his character. This is what I call insincerity. I pity such people !!
  
  
• From: kooththan (@ keno.pmc-vacc.com) on: Fri Mar 5 16:06:25 EST 1999
  
  Like Kiru said, HTNI is actually a comparative study of western and indian clasical music. It takes a genius to do this.
  
  Too bad the fans don't even have the slightest clue what he has tried to do. Instead, we try to show off our cleverness by calling them copies.
  
  A genius is never accepted in his/her time by his/her people.
  
  ....later
  
  
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Mar 5 16:08:36 EST 1999
  
  kooththan, hey, thanks for pointing my mistake :) adhu en thappu dhaan. But the point i was trying to make is still valid. In the blind-adulation for IR lets not attribute everything to him!!
  
  Kiru, you have a very valid point when you say that we need to evaluate people on their professional merit and not them as a "person". we seem to get things mixed up and the yardsticks applied get disconfigured. But, coming to arguments about director-MD relationship, Maniratnam was smart enough to get the right songs from IR/ARR. Extracting good songs is the job of a director and it reflects how good they are. And maniratnam was helped to some extent by music... music was also ONE of the strengths of his movies...and he deserves the full credit for getting the right kind of songs from his MDs.
  
  chandy
  
  
  
• From: nakkeeran (@ inet-fw5-o.oracle.com) on: Fri Mar 5 17:17:51 EST 1999
  
  > IR is a composer/music director; others are just songmakers.
  
  neththi adi kiru!
  
  
• From: Ganesh Babu (@ 205.218.142.246) on: Fri Mar 5 18:57:01 EST 1999
  
  Raj,
  I accept 3 and 4 but not 1 and 2. Do you mean to say 16 vayathinilae and Mouna Ragam were good only because of the songs, music and re-recording. They had stories, narration and performance. Indha madhiri thookivittu than IR nilamai sarindhadhu enbathu en feeling.
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ bart.americas.nokia.com) on: Fri Mar 5 20:25:34 EST 1999
  
  Also we all have to realise one thing with regard to HTNI and NBW. Raaja had come down from his level to use scores from Thulasi and whatever WCM piece just to present an easy to understand platform for the IGNORAMUS like us, and explain new concepts in fusion. (That includes me).
  
  Hmmmmm. Sighing.. Cooling down a little bit. I am fed up with typing - IR has presented literally hundreds of songs each for a different situation in Mayamalavagowlai - And he wants to present the fusion of the works of 2 different pioneers (Thyagaraaja and Bach???) - now it becomes copying.
  
  
  But the concepts elude us! And IR is eccentric and controversial, - therefore let us all just somehow try to find instances where he could have copied - and - then Sago.Thinakaran ???
  
  After such a statement - I dont see anything wrong in Raj going overboard with his statements. After all, arent we dealing with illogical stuff now. What beeter way to counter that than with an outlandish statement.
  
  >And he has the gutts to call himself as its >composer!!!! I dont deny IR is "a" genius, but
  > that doesnt make him as "THE" genius!
  
  Chandy,
  Please tell me this. He should not call himself as the composer - but he is 'a' genius is it ???
  
  >kooththan, hey, thanks for pointing my mistake :) >adhu en thappu dhaan. But the point i was trying >to make is still valid. In the blind-adulation >for IR lets not attribute everything to him!!
  
  Chandy if you had just told this alone earlier, it would have helped - instead you got provoked too.
  
  Mukund
  
  
• From: Diwakar (@ 175-166-249.ipt.aol.com) on: Fri Mar 5 22:28:40 EST 1999
  
  It has been said that plagiarism is the highest form of flattery. No doubt, IR ( and others too :-) ) are practitioners of this philosophy. The major difference is that IR can present old wine in a refreshingly new bottle - adding a few ingredients of his own - and not many can claim that as a strength.
  
  And reading the comments about his downfall, one would be tempted to think that he fell down the ladder faster than he climbed. The opposite is true. Over two decades as a music composer - and a great one at that - is no mean achievement.
  
  
• From: Shankar (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Sat Mar 6 03:32:46 EST 1999
  
  Diwakar,
  i guess u need a lesson or two in differentiating inspiration and plagiarism.
  
  The "major difference" u quoted suits to arr and not to raja.
  
  He's a true composer.
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Mon Mar 8 09:41:39 EST 1999
  
  Shankar/Diwakar: I've given you the differences between those words.
  
  Sorry IR fans, for the next two statements I am about to make. Please note they are IMO and are observations I have made with my knowledge of music and from participating in this DF and reading others comments. No Personal Attacks, please. Shankar, I also agree that IR is a true composer.....
  
  IMO, ARR HAS NEVER "plagiarised"(copied a FULL song and said that it was his own) - the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own, but has been "inspired" - arousal of the mind to special unusual activity or creativity; a product of your creative thinking and work many a time.....i.e., he has never passed off another's work as his own, nor has he ever produced a song which is an exact reproduction of another. He has been 'inspired' to use samples/loops Jungle beat in Theendai, loop in Mutthu - these are available to buy and can be used by anyone, in any-which-way they want.... e.t.c.....
  
  IR too has been 'inspired' many a time, by the Great Western Composers, like Mozart and Bach.....He HAS 'plagiarised'- (copied a FULL song and said that it was his own) in Darling Darling Darling(Priya) from Sunny (BoneyM), Pon Malargalin Irrupidam from Theerthakaraiyinilae e.t.c.....
  
  I agree that ARR's few inspirations are from just a few songs, as opposed to IR's few copies, from numerous songs and am not trying to put IR down. I'm just responding to posts in this whole thread....
  
  ______________________________
  inspiration \In`spi*ra"tion\:
  The act or power of exercising an elevating or stimulating influence upon the intellect or emotions; the result of such influence which quickens or stimulates; as, the inspiration of occasion, of art, etc.
  
  1: arousal of the mind to special unusual activity or creativity 2: a product of your creative thinking and work; "he had little respect for the inspirations of other artists" 3: a sudden intuition as part of solving a problem 4: arousing to a particular emotion or action
  
  plagiarism:
  1: a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work 2: the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own.
  
  1. The act or practice of plagiarizing. 2. That which plagiarized.
  
  
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Mon Mar 8 11:14:41 EST 1999
  
  Geetha,,
  
  Your note was brilliant! You brought out the subtle differences in plagiarism and inspiration rather strogly backing up your claims with concrete evidences. Hats off to you :)
  
  What I dont agree with this extra-obsession with IR. Hes great and all that, but theres a limit to the adulation. I am seeing people going over-board saying that IR is the sole-person responsible for even maniratnam's "lift" and upheaval. And in the process of their blind adulation, the ardent fans seem to become blind to the other geniuses who are on par with, or above than IR!
  
  
  
  

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