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Raja's Dabba Songs!

Topic started by Srikanth (@ proxy1.dpn.deere.com) on Mon Sep 14 13:55:31 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hi,
I want to list out "Dabba Songs" of Raja.
This will prove even Raja has composed "Dabba songs". I have huge list, which I will adding soon.

Velai Eadum Illamal Benchil Irukum
Srikanth

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: pennathur (@ 12.46.179.254) on: Tue May 13 14:10:33 EDT 2003
  
  Thanks Sriram for making clear what I have been saying. An Indian classical musician is a composer when performing as he/she has to add personal touches and produce virtually a new piece every time the piece is performed. In this respect Bismillah Khan is as much a composer as IR or the Trinity. I am not comparing Khan to IR. I am stressing that improvisation is the pivot of Indian classical music. While we do not have anything like 1-3 hour sonatas; don't forget that at one time aalapanais/aalaaps were meant to be played over 2-3 hours. The current 3 hour set piece format for Carnatic music is a recent innovation. The kriti-varnam-heavy concerts of these days are largely due to the explosion of Trinity and post-Trinity compositions over the last 200 years. Hindustani music is less encumbered and continues to rely on longer sets - with the dhrupad being a classic beyond compare - imagine 45 minutes of a single ragam. As for counterpoint etc., are we making too much of a basic structural feature of WCM? In WCM composition students learn these somewhere into the 2nd or 3rd year and reproduce it quite easily. The challenge in WCM comes from being able to draw out the entire theme with richness of detail. If Indian composers aren't interested in such structural features; it doesn't speak of how difficult it is - it is virtuosity vs. spontaneity. OK maybe not Mannavan Vandanadi - how about "Nalam Daana and Maraindirunde Parkkum". Some IR-bhaktars would have us believe that there was no music before IR came on the scene!! Newton said, "I have looked far standing on the shoulders of giants."
  
  
• From: mythila (@ 137.237.13.20) on: Tue May 13 14:28:33 EDT 2003
  
  SriRam, I never said these songs were pure classical. Infact ,I prefer these raaga based light songs to hard core classical songs , in film music.I can always turn to kutcheris from our vidhwaans for pure classical right? I would any day opt for these afore mentioned kalyaanis to pure classical ones like, 'Kalai vaaniye' in SinduBairavi or 'Janani Janani', 'Amma endrazhaikaadha' . It is just my preference.
  
  
• From: mythila (@ 137.237.13.20) on: Tue May 13 14:30:00 EDT 2003
  
  correction : afore mentioned LIGHTER Versions of kalyaanis
  
  
• From: sriram (@ 163.181.250.2) on: Tue May 13 15:20:50 EDT 2003
  
  mythila - I was just trying to clarify a point made by pennathur. I appreciate your preference for IR's filmi songs over more classical numbers. But, since, we are arguing about the absence of such numbers by IR, it will be a bit out of scope discussing IR's filmi numbers which have a raga flavour.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue May 13 15:28:10 EDT 2003
  
  pennathur ..good that you clarify that improvisation is part and parcel of indian classical music. You have conveniently side-stepped the argument on IRs compositions being non-improvisable.
  I think IR did not do 'hard-core' carnatic music because of the situation (I am with sriram on this). Today, MDs cannot think of a carnatic song without any mixture of electronic beat in them. So it is just a trend in popular music to go away and away from pure classical music.
  The last person to ever counter you was me, so do not make indirect references to IR bhaktars, if you have anything against my arguments.
  Re: counter point and WCM. Well, I dont know much about music, but why is it that other MDs do not do counterpoint and WCM technique as much ? I guess they spend all their time going thru their library of rhythm samples for the next big 'trend setting' album.
  Well, I'm sorry, If I sound so indignant, but I think you are seriously underestimating and/or doing injustice to one of the fine composers in film music who has taken film music as a genre to its heights ( this genre is not nurtured by other MDs, sadly including one of his own sons).
  
  BTW, I think it was Einstein who said, "I stand tall on the shoulders of giants" in the context of Newton.
  
  
• From: sriram (@ 163.181.250.2) on: Tue May 13 16:27:10 EDT 2003
  
  Sometime back there was a poster called Raghapravaham Sundar who strongly asserted that to listen to pure raga-based carnatic film songs one has to go all the way to Papanasam Sivan & the 40s-50s. A lot of ROS-ers still fondly remember his sojourn here :-)
  
  
• From: pennathur (@ 12.46.179.254) on: Tue May 13 16:37:15 EDT 2003
  
  Ayyo! Ambel! I am not criticising you Sriram. I value IR very highly and have said as much many times in many contexts. I don't make light of his numerous innovations - at the same time I believe that these are his contributions to FM; just as every MD has contributed something unique to FM.
  
  
• From: pennathur (@ 12.46.179.254) on: Tue May 13 16:37:41 EDT 2003
  
  Ayyo! Ambel! I am not criticising you Kiru. I value IR very highly and have said as much many times in many contexts. I don't make light of his numerous innovations - at the same time I believe that these are his contributions to FM; just as every MD has contributed something unique to FM.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue May 13 19:07:17 EDT 2003
  
  pennathur feel free to criticize me or IR or any MDs music here. You are one of those very few good posters we get here now and then. I am just trying to put things in a different perspective. It is likely your interest in indian classical music makes you look at things the way you do. I am not deep into indian classical or western classical. IR's light mix of these two is an ideal listening material for me.
  Yes, every MD's compositions are very unique, but not all of them come up with unique techniques that are basic enough for the next generation to follow up on !!
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue May 13 19:11:45 EDT 2003
  
  DIGRESSION:
  
  "I dont know much about music, but why is it that other MDs do not do counterpoint and WCM technique as much ? I guess they spend all their time going thru their library of rhythm samples for the next big 'trend setting' album."
  
  Kiru, I am not sure if you were taking veiled shots at ARR with that statement(If you have to take shots at him do it openly, like I do :-) ) but its not necessary that every MD has to follow IRs WCM and fusion techniques and incorporate it in their songs. MSV didnt do that earlier. But he innovated a lot more on melody and rhythm. Likewise ARR has his own unique style and a quest for exploring different genres. If everyone were to follow IRs style TFM would end up being repetetive.
  
  
  Pennathur: You seem to be ignoring our examples here while going about your argument and on the other hand you keep throwing examples of your own. While I have heard all the songs that you have mentioned I am not sure if you have heard the numbers that I mentioned yesterday as well as songs like "Nee ondru thaana sangeetham", "aadal kalaiye devan thandhadhu" etc. etc.
  
  You chose the wrong songs from Sindhubhairavi and Salangai Oli to support your point.
  
  I would like you to elaborate on how these above IR songs have any less scope for "improvisation" than the ones you mentioned.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue May 13 19:56:56 EDT 2003
  
  vijay, dont take that statement seriously. I was a little upset when pennathur said 'counterpoints' are easily done.
  No..people dont have to follow IR, even though he himself followed MSV. I feel IR was playing in a genre called 'film music'. This is a fusion of indian classical and western classical. This genre does not exist anywhere else (obviously, because of the indian part in it) and it is our MD's (both Hindi, Tamil and others') own invention.
  It would be a pity to let this genre wallow and die.
  
  

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