Home   Forum   Wiki   Notes   Register   FAQ   Sitemap   About Us   Contact Us  

Ilayaraja copy adiththa paadalgal

Topic started by Rajaraman (@ 192.122.136.148) on Sat Jul 26 05:27:10 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

---

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Tue Mar 23 15:03:35 EST 1999
  
  And Chandy, My 'demeaning ' MR, BR etc. has nothing to do with Raja. If you want to cite that as the reason you want to keep on reminding people that Raja copied atleast one song...well, well...I am forced to ask "Do you listen to your convictions OR react to others''?
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ s05.austin.ibm.com) on: Tue Mar 23 15:06:40 EST 1999
  
  Chandy, the karuchchikottifying is because with the 3/4000 fraction people make it out to be a big issue. Ok, I shall agree with you - everytime I praise IR's 3997+ original songs, I shall think "But, this guy also has copied 3 songs". In that case every ARR fan or Deva fan would end up thinking more about the copies than the originals. We have not finished praising the originality of 3997+ songs of IR - once we are done with that we shall criticize his copied songs ! OTOH, it will not take others very long to finish praising the couple of hundred songs of their own favourite MD, so by this time they should have started crticizing their idols. Do you realize the futility of the entire excercise ? It is not only the plain act of copying that is wrong, it is also the intent that matters. Undeniably, Deva's inly intent in copying Titanic and Lion King can be money. Can you say the same of IR ? If that were the case, surely he would have copied a lot more and become a lot richer ! This cheap mentality of making money from others' creations is what I condemn - not the occasional (3/4000) flicking for fun or kicks.
  
  "If the die-hard fans can attribut every many successess in TF world solely to IR"
  
  There may be some really crazed IR fans here who say that he is the best ever MD in TFM. But I have never come across anyone who claimed that every success in TF is due to IR. You are putting words in our mouths now :-)
  
  The black mark/white cloth example won't hold water (pun unintended :-)) because the black mark is not the exact opposite of a white cloth. That is the mark is not a cloth and the cloth is not a mark. Whereas an original song is a song and a copied song is also a song. But I think I am wasting my time here unnecessarily. Udhaya has promised to help out with the Film Videos thread and I am sure I'll be much happier there :-)
  
  Chandy, if it will help even out things - Yes, IR too has been guilty of copying on the rarest of rare occasions. The act of his copying a song is every bit as despicable as Deva's or ARR's. This I state without considering the "white cloth" portion of any MD. Yes, all of them have certain black marks to their names. I cannot speak for every IR fan here, but since I am considered one of the foremost IR supporters in this forum, I hope that you will attribute to my statements a greater amount of credibility and consider your point well established. But I would also appreciate it if you took a second look at our claims and decide for yourself whether they merit an acceptance to any degree. This uncharacteristic display of politeness is because I am desperate to get out of here and take on the Film videos thread !
  
  
• From: RAJ (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Tue Mar 23 15:14:35 EST 1999
  
  Srinath: And you dont sound a wee bit as exciting as you can be when you are polite:). It is like Rajnikanth doing a Pratap Pothen:)).
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Tue Mar 23 15:50:27 EST 1999
  
  Raj,
  
  There! u go again!! "Both of you accussed Raja of copying".... All that I said was IF IR had copied, hes No Mr.Clean. Wheres the accusation???
  
  There are atleast 3 instances where you bracketed me with Mr.Kuzhapam 1) "chandy kuzhapam et al.." and then 2) the instance you quoted in your last posting. And of course, now the 3).. "both of you accused raja.." :)) I have nothing against Mr.Kuzhapam.... I'm bothered more about being branded which seems to emanate from this bracketing with Mr.Khuzapam!
  
  Coming to the Qs you have raised, when did i ever say that IR ran out of ideas or dry? He could have done those accused-lifts due to whatever external pressures, or he could have even come up with better tunes if he had a chance! The issues isnt "why" he did that but if he did that at all in the first place. Anf if he has done that, to atleast make a note of it rather than completely dismissing it. And do you think its fair to ask me if I could compare Deva's copies with IR's?????????????? :) The answers for your questions are all too obvious.
  
  And Srinath, a space in a wrong spot in a statement could make a lot of difference.
  
  "If the die-hard fans can attribut every many successess in TF world solely to IR"
  
  While I missed a space between the words "attribute" and "very", typoing it as "attributevery", you added a space on thw rong spot thus making "very" as "every" :-)) So I'm not putting words into anyone's mouth! And isnt it true that very many TF successes have been attributed to IR? Some of these are very valid, some others arent! Previous postings in this forum stand as proofs for the same.
  
  chandy
  
  
• From: lottu (@ global25.citicorp.com) on: Tue Mar 23 15:58:50 EST 1999
  
  The topic is Ilayaraja copy adiththa paadalgal. Please do justice to the topic by listing TF songs that were copied by IR and refrain from the following:
  
  1. Why IR copied
  2. Bringing other MDs
  
  
• From: Muralidharan (@ host035.databahnsoft.com) on: Tue Mar 23 17:56:56 EST 1999
  
  Another song which IR created and reused himself. The tune of "Thai Pongalum Vandhadhu..." of Mahanadhi already appeared in "Hey Sami Varudhu sami varudhu Vazhiya vidungada..." of UdanPirappu.
  
  Also, the second stanza of "Idhayam Oru Koil" of Idhaya Koil sound very similar to second stanza of "Pogudhe pogudhe" of kadalora kavithaigal. May be they both are based on same raga? Any Carnatic jambavans could explain?
  
  - Murali
  
  
• From: Muralidharan (@ host035.databahnsoft.com) on: Tue Mar 23 17:57:06 EST 1999
  
  Another song which IR created and reused himself. The tune of "Thai Pongalum Vandhadhu..." of Mahanadhi already appeared in "Hey Sami Varudhu sami varudhu Vazhiya vidungada..." of UdanPirappu.
  
  Also, the second stanza of "Idhayam Oru Koil" of Idhaya Koil sound very similar to second stanza of "Pogudhe pogudhe" of kadalora kavithaigal. May be they both are based on same raga? Any Carnatic jambavans could explain?
  
  - Murali
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Tue Mar 23 18:25:18 EST 1999
  
  Murali,
  
  The resemblance you have quoted is not apparent except for the tabla. Both are set in the same thalam and sandhams are somewhat similar (not fully). IOK is based on Mohanam (impure) and poguthey poguthey on sankarabaranam (? again impure with some mishra shivaranjini combo)
  
  
• From: hari (@ hud04a01.ml.com) on: Wed Mar 24 08:58:34 EST 1999
  
  srinath,
  K, you made your point and I dont dispute with that, but after seeing all this petty fights, any
  third person ( if at all he exists) seeing this thread, he would get a different picture, IMO.
  Anyhow, I should stop advising what people should like ( I dont think, I am doing that, but if I make that impression, I am sorry).
  Regarding your comments on copying music styles vs final product, I have this question. Being a musician, you know better. I feel vivaldi four
  seasons is a final product just like Bonny M or
  sound of music, as in the case of lion of king or titanic, IMO, thayagaraja kirthanis too.
  
  Raj
  buddy, I accept your view on my comments on man hood, and I will take back what i said, hope we can finish this matter once for all now.
  As i said before, this thread is still alive, not
  because of some over-jealous ARR fans, but because of few over-Passionate IR fans.
  
  with smile :-)
  e.hari
  
  
• From: D.Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-167.il.us.ibm.net) on: Wed Mar 24 09:17:28 EST 1999
  
  Hi Raj & Srinath and others (including our Kuzapam) and middle men like Chandy.
  
  As a musician I am writing this,
  If Raja flicks or not-- I do not care,
  When I compose a beat to a song or a string section score -- My little brain automatically thinks HOW IR would do the it - make me work to match his stds, I am amazed by the IR's influence on me without my knowledge.
  Similary Raja who knows in and out of bach, is bound to be influenced by Bach or other WC composers --- without He knowing that he is being influenced.
  So Lets us do not care much about raja coping etc .... I would request Ravi to close this negative thread -- just to save the respect of this great composer.
  
  
• From: D.Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-167.il.us.ibm.net) on: Wed Mar 24 09:18:24 EST 1999
  
  My english is worse than my VC++ code
  Sorry.
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Mar 24 09:26:30 EST 1999
  
  E.Hari: Well, I do get excited when Raja is accused of copying...maybe, I could have been larger hearted like Srinath. But then what of that? Now that all of us have made our points without conceding an inch here or there, prhaps it is time we moved on...
  
  Srikanth! Nice perspective. Wish it stands the test of time.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp02.sprint.com) on: Wed Mar 24 10:23:00 EST 1999
  
  My apologies for bringing in the usage of asterisk to suggest profanity (I am not sure if cra* can be termed as profanity but I always believe the user is never an objective judge - so I concede). However, I was quite upset with Madhan's stubbornness in "thaan pidichcha muyaluuku..". Despite my stating that mohanam is not equal to yaman and other related matters, and Geetha also corraborated the same, Madhan purposelessly quotes a (fictional?) Mridangam friend who thinks M=Y.
  Raj,
  You have yourself said that you do not have any music training or technical expertise. Assuming that what you are saying is true, let me say this. The fact that mohanam is not equal to yaman is as basic to even a casual classic musical listener, just as 4 out of 4000 songs of Raja's songs are copies translates to .1% in mathematics. If I argued that well it is not .1% but it is 10% and also quote that I have a friend - an expert in Geography - who claims that 4/4000 is in fact 10%. And thus claim that IR = Deva (What a terrible example). How long do you think your patience is going to last? And Madhan did not refute my claim. He singled out Geetha's comments. Raj, you know very well that I do not agree with everything which Geetha says or the tone in which she conveys. But still that is no reason to single anybody out, especially if you have'nt done your homework, or the Mridangam player's homework:-)
  
  Frankly Raj, I thought the perspective of the thread was lost about 4 pages ago. The thread was not about whether IR was a copy cat, thief etc, or whether he was inferior/superior to other MDs. I read the heading as a purely curious exercise to find out and analyze those songs. But as I have learnt in my short tenure at the forum, any mention of IR or ARR immediately invokes fan vitriol. And if you and Srinath have participated in it, well as much as I hate to say it, you are responsible for the degeneration too.
  
  I am glad and hopeful that it is over.
  
  
• From: Unni (@ sable.soc.staffs.ac.uk) on: Wed Mar 24 10:23:58 EST 1999
  
  Hello All, I'm new here, this is an interesting argument by MADHAN - Goa
  
  "WRONG AGAIN.....Mohanam is Bhoop in Hindustani, whilst Yaman is a version of MechaKalyani - Also known as Yaman Kalyani(NRGMDNRS SNDPMGRNRS is one[of many controversial] Aarohanam Avarohanam of this lovely Ragam), popular song being Krishna Nee Beghane Baaro FYI, as RajaG said, on both accounts. I am also at doubt at your comment that Oru Kanam is in Mohanam....."
  
  I have been very sincerely trying to ascertain the validity of my statement - my friend , a practicising MRudangist , tells me that MOHANAM is indeed YAMAN !! this person has been playing the MRIDANG for a long be having some knowledge , if not as WIDE and BROAD A KNOWLEDGE OF MUSIC, that Ms.Geetha seems to be possessing !"
  
  
  OK, lets see, YOU ARE WRONG - MOHANAM WILL NEVER BE YAMAN EVER, however much you say it, just like Raja will never again be Number 1. If your Mirudangist is a practicing one, he may be good at TALAM but OBVIOUSLY NOT RAGA. Now you and him look bad. I would say that his musical knowledge, as far as Rag is concerned is WRONG.
  
  From her postings, Ms. Geetha does seem very knowledgeable, like Mr RajaG and Murali Shankar and Srikanth.
  
  You too seem to be a sporadic reader/watcher of this thread.
  
  I agree with Lottu, but feel that you must discuss why the copies were. I am a great Raja fan, and read some back issues - posting by a Rajaraman. The song Maaman Veedu Matchaan Veedu, which was a copy of the Swarajathi with words Raaravenu in Bilahari Rag, this was a copy by Raja because it was the situation in the film in which the people would only dance to a Carnatic Number. Again, not a copy, but a song that fits the situation.
  
  By the way, can you make a list of FULLY COPIED songs by Rahman? I know of many of his inspirations but not of a full copy. A full copy is that of DEVA, for the song Sayonee from Junoon.
  
  CHANDY/SRINATH/RAJ make good arguments.
  
  
  
  
  

---

List all pages of this thread

Post comments