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Creativity of MSV

Topic started by RAJAN (@ proxy-117.iap.bryant.webtv.net) on Sat Jan 10 15:32:47 EST 1998.
All times in EDT/EST +9:30/10:30 for IST.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ proxy10.ykt.prodigy.net) on: Tue Jun 22 01:48:23 EDT 1999
  
  Raj, yes, learnt a lesson or two from you on 'leg-pulling'. Strange, a tanjore-ian learning sarcasm from a Maana Madurai bred.:-)
  
  SK, I did not. Both songs are set to swing beat though.
  
  Raja fan, you are going by another popular misconception. True, MSV more often than not laid out the melody first but was not bound any rigid school of thinking as such, Indian classical or otherwise. You had several cases where a typical Indian instrument (Sitar) would be playing out a western-ish note or playing the seconds for another sitar piece (Engiruntho AasaigaL). In 'KaNgaL enge' in Karnan, you had a sitar blending in with xylophone playing out the pallavi with a Veena playing a counter-melody,a WC concept. This is one of the reasons why his melody line is bereft of any pre-conceived structure or formula (except for the pallavi/charanam concept).I think, his knowledge of western music/Indian music fundas came into play only when needed and did not form the basis of his composing psychology (Boy!! we could open another thread for MD's composing psyche) , a case of knowledge occupying the right place. This is one of the reasons why he ended up rubbing some theorists on the wrong side.
  This unconventional approach to composing reflected in his choice of instruments too sometimes. Neram Pournami neram , a bouncy love-duet (SPB-VJ) from Meenava NaNban had a generous sprinkling of Shehnai pieces that fitted in very well.veLLi maNi osayile (iru malargaL) had Shehnai pieces in the interludes that blended in very well with the mood.
  
  To me, even their (IR and MSV) approach to composing are poles apart, and so is ARR refreshingly different from the rest (thirakaatha kaattukkuLLe should certainly be one of the very best of the 90's). Inspite of being a Salil fan, I felt that he consciously indulged in too many twists and turns in his melody line that sometimes ruined the mood the song was supposed to express.Eg:- Tasveer teri dil mein(Maya) had a charanam that took off well but ended up nearly in a staccato manner. 'Guzar jaye din' by KK had a charaNam that could not sustain the melody in the Pallavi, only owing to the unexpected 'rise and fall' of the tune and betrayed self-indulgence on the part of Salil.
  
  Raja fan, I have heard atleast 90% of what HFM had to offer (right from the 40's) and my conclusion is, if there is a composer who could nearly match MSV for his spontaneity in tunes, it could be only C Ramachandra and to some extent Roshan (no, not even Madan Mohan and SDB).
  
  
  
  
• From: Rags (@ stingray.cincom.com) on: Tue Jun 22 02:55:37 EDT 1999
  
  SL,
  
  And may I add Naushad - forget his classicals - just note his orchestration for 'mera salam le ja' and ofcourse the lilting melody...
  
  And may I add O P Nayyar - forget the horse hooves - the melody he created with AB and MdRafi...
  
  The list can go on ... and no, I don't agree about the views on SDB (he was a class act)...
  
  I agree with RajaFan - IMO too, MSV did definitely have a strong urge to remain confined to classical base in his compositions - perceptions are reality !! (whatever one might say about popular misconceptions :-))
  
  That makes me wonder (a new topic perhaps for discussion) - MSV seems to have been severely constrained by available male singers during his time in his creative output. TMS, PBS - not very malleable singers right ? And why didn't he use KJY and SPB more often or even ALR ? I have some opinions on this subject - but reserve it for future.
  
  
• From: karthi (@ 1cust133.tnt1.rantoul.il.da.uu.net) on: Tue Jun 22 03:30:15 EDT 1999
  
  Sriram, "vara vendum oru pozhudhu' song-il "arrangement"-kku enna irukku? The no. of instruments used was just 2 :))
  
  
• From: aruvi (@ spc-isp-tor-uas-81-9.sprint.ca) on: Tue Jun 22 12:18:08 EDT 1999
  
  Rags
  
  I have the feeling that KJY and SPB's voices did not suit the leading actors of those days. Just as if TMS sang for any hero right now it would not seem good. Plus, the MD has to cater to the wishes of the director producer. Of course, this is my limited knowledge, so I may be wrong.
  
  
• From: Hari (@ cache1.uwo.ca) on: Tue Jun 22 20:13:22 EDT 1999
  
  SL, Raj,
  
  I apologized not for my preference, but rather for expressing it in this particular thread.
  
  In any case, having made that irrelvant comment, and having reflected on this analogy, let me amend it to say that MSV would be more a Haydn to IR's Mozart. Haydn ("Papa Haydn" to Mozart) was a great friend of Mozart's and extremely fond of him. Mozart dedicated a set of string quartets to him (apparently, he worked especially hard at this.)
  
  SL, you dismiss SDB too easily. For a great example of a cohesive set of tunes for a movie, check out Munimji (1955) by SDB. I came across this some months back.
  
  
• From: karthi (@ 1cust224.tnt1.rantoul.il.da.uu.net) on: Tue Jun 22 20:24:03 EDT 1999
  
  malleable -na enna?
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ dhcp-acct-06.redbrick.com) on: Tue Jun 22 20:32:31 EDT 1999
  
  Hari, Rags,
  Dismissing SDB? No way. But certainly sir, though his compositions are classy, in terms of richness Roshan goes well above him and so does Madan Mohan. Moreover, the tune flow could be predicted on a lot of occassions, the metre could be predicted though the captivating feature was always present. No sir, not for minute, do not compare him with MSV.
  I rank MSV above all these because he was much more versatile than all these people and far more consistent and prolific. His consistency does not have a match in TFM till today.
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ dhcp-acct-08.redbrick.com) on: Tue Jun 22 21:06:37 EDT 1999
  
  Rags,
  I thought MSV had a superb array of singers, TMS for his masculine voice, PBS for melody, Seerkazhi for intense bhakthi etc. Frankly, I am glad that he did not use ALR all that much. TMS and PBS, his lead singers have sung everything from slow pathos to upbeat numbers under his baton.If anybody was unlucky in this regard, it was IR. He did not have a masculine voice worthy of mention at his disposal (to me MV is a sorry excuse for a singer) and in general , no really high-pitched voice. Singers like Deepan Chakravarthy or SN Surinder cannot be tolerated for more than 2 songs at a stretch.
  
  
• From: Rags (@ stingray.cincom.com) on: Tue Jun 22 23:33:00 EDT 1999
  
  SL,
  
  You are actually reemphasising my point ! TMS, Seergazhi ARE classical singers. And to carry this drift further and answering Karthi's query (malleable n enna ?), these singers' background in Carnatic was so strongly entrenched that it was seemingly impossible to get them to sing , may I say, 'differently.
  
  You said correctly "He did not have a masculine voice worthy of mention at his disposal..." Thats exactly the point I made - and thus MSV had to restrict to whatever was available.
  
  Just imagine if he had singers in the same league as Md Rafi, Mukesh, Talat, Manna Dey, Kishore or even Mahendra Kapoor ...perhaps we can only imagine the gretaer heights MSV would have achieved (by this I mean no offence to the status MSV HAS achieved - I mean it could have been even more).
  And thats where I bring in SPB ( the SPB that IR got :-)) and KJY. To reflect on Aruvi's posting, SPB and KJY have suited Sivaji and MGR quite well (even in 70s) and definitely Gemini, Ravichandran, Jaisanjar, Sivakumar...list can go on.
  
  So, I continue to wonder why MSV did not use SPB, KJY or even ALR more. It would have only meant 'creativity' if did use them. So why not ??? Perhaps only MSV can answer that ?
  As I said in my earlier posting, I have some opinions which I'll touch upon later.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.28.53) on: Wed Jun 23 02:25:39 EDT 1999
  
  SL,
  since u talked about meenava nanban, i wanted to ask u the raaga for the song 'pongum kadalosai' sung by VJ in that film. a fantastic melody. i just forgot the raaga for the song.i know that this is not the thread, but anyway i hope u would'nt mind helping me if u know this song.
  
  
• From: RR (@ proxy.krdl.org.sg) on: Wed Jun 23 05:08:04 EDT 1999
  
  Pongum kadalosai is Valaji.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Wed Jun 23 11:24:54 EDT 1999
  
  SL:
  
  IR had SPB, KJY, SJ,KSC and Swarnalatha. marandhutteengaLa ?
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.28.35) on: Wed Jun 23 11:29:37 EDT 1999
  
  RR,
  thanx.
  
  
• From: e.hari (@ hud04a01.ml.com) on: Wed Jun 23 12:13:10 EDT 1999
  
  does pongum kadolosai and nenjam marapadalli belong to same raga?, they sound very similiar to me?.
  
  e.hari
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ dhcp-acct-06.redbrick.com) on: Wed Jun 23 15:21:03 EDT 1999
  
  MS,
  Me and forgetting SPB ? Not possible. KJY and SPB and essentially melody singers almost in the same mould as PBS. I was referring to the variety of voices at IR's disposal.
  
  
  
• From: Srikath (@ slip-32-101-16-164.il.us.ibm.net) on: Thu Jun 24 08:13:26 EDT 1999
  
  Nan Avan Illai : Radha Kadal Varatha...
  The melody variation he gives is something phenominal, none others could do. Spb raises to the ocation and renders it with a great feel. In the same movie, manthara malre....a great mallish number.ARR adapts similar malaylam tune in Uyire.
  
  One tune I often remeber even while sleeping,
  Kadul ornal ulagai kaana .... this song has a great tune variations.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-164.il.us.ibm.net) on: Thu Jun 24 08:15:20 EDT 1999
  
  
  After reading my posting, I think I should join some repaid written english course at once, sorry guys for a poor english display.
  
  
• From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Thu Jun 24 15:20:40 EDT 1999
  
  srikAnth,
  
  thanks for reminding mandhAra malarE mandhAra malarE. what a song!
  
  
• From: Naan Saliththavan Alla (@ bkj-cache80.jaring.my) on: Thu Jun 24 21:36:25 EDT 1999
  
  Malarendi per ethu?
  Ammukutti!
  Ammu? Kutti? Ammukutti!
  
  
• From: SK (@ azure.nus.edu.sg) on: Thu Jun 24 22:46:46 EDT 1999
  
  Naan Saliththavan Alla:
  
  You left out:
  
  Ammukutti, sugam thannE?
  
  
• From: NOV (@ 202.184.134.8) on: Thu Jun 24 23:17:51 EDT 1999
  
  SK - :-))))
  
  
• From: raja (@ spider-wk054.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Jun 26 13:39:39 EDT 1999
  
  How about the song Naan Paadum Paadale Vaan Meedhu.. Adhu Yen Kanne -from Bhavani (PS is just melodius) - what ragam is this based on?
  
  
• From: Raja Fan (@ spider-tr031.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Jul 3 13:03:42 EDT 1999
  
  Vels, you got the best selection of MSV songs!!!!
  
  I love the song: Naan Oruvarai Oruvar sandhipimena kaadhal devadhai chonnaar!
  
  

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