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Serious doubt Reg IR music

Topic started by yaaro (@ 62.6.139.13) on Wed Aug 18 15:25:28 EDT 2004.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I am a diehard IR fan.
There have been gigabytes of material posted analysing IR's music-whether it be carnatic or western or folk. I hardly have seen any other MD's music being analysed and dissected as IR's.
I am a zero as far as musical technicality is concerned.
What I am curious is whether other MD's creations are not as complex as IR's-or is it that only IR's fans are music savvy-or is it that we are really complexi-fying his music.The last, I am sure is not the reason .
For eg the only comment I can remember for ARR is the famous ''kedharathukku sedharam'' comment for ennavale..

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Mon Sep 6 15:05:22 EDT 2004
  
  Kaumidi, thats my point. Since the number of films/songs he did in TeFM is less and since he worked mostly with big directors/actors he probably paid a little bit more attention there in Rrhythm aspects. But the fact remains that there are a lot of hits in TeFM that were exported from TFM. Wwe recently had alist compiled in IR new albums thread. Even I was thinking the import was the other way around.
  
  "vijay, do you think I have not listened to older MDs ?"
  
  well by your own admission in your previous post, you said you havent listened much to other MDs.You didnt say current or old.
  If you have listened to as much old TFM as you have listened to IR(which I highly doubt)you will get better what I am saying.
  
  I have given enough popular examples of "malai/love" IR songs that dont have the fancy beats you are talking about.
  
  "I think I have made a point that varying rhythms conflict with WCM orchestrations"
  
  If you make a point you need to give examples. Until then, it will be just your opinion and little else. So far I havent seen any explanation or examples from your side as to how varying rhythms conflict with WCM. On the other hand, I hav given enough examples of well orchestrated IR songs where the rhythm DOES vary. You dont have to take my word as the last word as whatever, but atleast back up what you say with some well illustrated examples.
  
  
• From: k (@ 67.118.9.44) on: Mon Sep 6 19:13:15 EDT 2004
  
  "If you have listened to as much old TFM as you have listened to IR(which I highly doubt)you will get better what I am saying."
  See ..these are the kind of people with whom I'd like to keep my interactions to a minimum :(. I regret addressing you directly and trying to make a pleasant discussion. Even discussing a hobby is being into a bitter encounter. What a pity !!
  
  I rest my case on the 'malai/love (actually kaamam/sexy') songs. I cannot provide more examples right now. It is upto the readers of the forum to make up their own conclusions on this and make whatever value out of 'just my opinion and little else'. I will provide better examples where simple rhythms have been complimented by better orchestartion. I will have to be in another post.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Mon Sep 6 22:25:09 EDT 2004
  
  Kiru, this is from your earlier post:
  "Note Man, I have not listened much to other MDs."
  
  I have just stated what you confessed 2 posts back.
  
  And I see that you have conveniently ignored my examples which dont support your theory. Good job, as always.
  
  " I will provide better examples where simple rhythms have been complimented by better orchestartion. "
  
  You dont have to. We are all well aware of such songs. The point is did the orchestation in those songs prevent IR from experimenting in rhythm? Is better orchestartion just an excuse for ignoring rhythm? thats the point we are discussing. And you are bypassing it again and again.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Mon Sep 6 22:27:22 EDT 2004
  
  And after all , it was you who claimed to have a better understanding of IR not me, although I have been the one constantly giving examples here.
  
  
• From: September (@ 202.54.153.21) on: Tue Sep 7 08:01:40 EDT 2004
  
  y figth stopped suddenly? please continue
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Sep 7 12:14:18 EDT 2004
  
  September, thanks for the "encouragement" :-), but currently nothing much to debate further, we have made our points.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 136.2.1.153) on: Tue Sep 7 15:12:39 EDT 2004
  
  vijay,k & others:
  IR's lack of variations in the rhythm patterns / rhythm instruments for, say 80%, of the late 80's / early 90's time period movies could also be attributed to the quantity/quality issue. I think he was wanted by one and all during that time period and unfortunately he wasn't choosy. This definitely resulted in some run-of-the-mill stuff (that most of those movies / song situations didn't deserve even that much is another thing).
  
  Lack of creativity was never a factor IMHO...in each time period there were unique gems...in fact variations in rhythm patterns was one thing (of the many novelties) which attracted a commoner like me to IR's music...
  
  ...if you look at his very first film, machAna patheengaLA had intersting usage of both chords as well as country drums (including the authentic URUMI MELAM) adding to tabla...sutha chamba pacha nellu had some interesting rocking pattern (namma veettu kalyANam...)...annakkiLi had that peculiar `nkghum' sound right from the prelude which was kind of novel (`kuLathil periya kal podura mAdhiri oru sound') and it had decent variations in the `nadai' too. sondhamillai-bandhamillai had variation when `akkakkA enum geetham' is sung.
  
  He continued with changed `sounds' in the percussion -rhythm department in bhadhrakALi and uRavAdum nenjam etc.
  
  Even the recent `pAttu cholli' had percussion sounds which are not the `norm' of the industry:-)
  
  IR needed inspiring director to get novel rhythm patterns too, I think....
  
  
• From: e (@ 136.2.1.153) on: Tue Sep 7 15:28:47 EDT 2004
  
  and of the many `bass guitar-rhythm' based numbers, pallavi of `uRavenum pudhiya vAnil' tops my list...many songs without any percussion (or percussion-not-heard:-) were so enchanting...like pallavi of `paRandhAlum vidamAttEn' which one will immediately be reminded of...
  
  Who said strong percussion sound is needed to create a foot-tapping number?:-))chords can do same magic, often without troubling ear drums...
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Tue Sep 7 16:48:28 EDT 2004
  
  
  valli valli ena vandhaan , pattu kannam, thenral vandhu theendum bodhu ,
  ippodhenna thevai.Though the rythm doen't vary during the song's course, whatever rythm is used in these songs make one sit up and take notice. If these rythms are not innovative, I want to know what are the songs which used these rythms in the same manner before IR.
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Tue Sep 7 17:02:41 EDT 2004
  
  add "solai poovil malai thenral" also. Correction : If the rythms in the mentioned songs are not innovative, atleast they are presented in a refreshing way . If they are neither way, then I want to know what are the songs which used these rythms in the same manner before IR.
  
  
• From: k (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue Sep 7 20:43:55 EDT 2004
  
  Please continue in the 'Rhythm of Raja' thread. I will join you guys there in the next couple of days.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Wed Sep 8 00:28:36 EDT 2004
  
  eden, lack of creativitynu sollala.lack of interest or focus in most cases (throughout 80s not just late 80s) Even in an album like Agni Nnatchathiram, both thoongadha vizhigaL and Vaa vaa anbe starts off with the same rhythm. This repetition within an album is present in several albums. Kiru's theory that rhythm somehow affects WCM is a figment of his own imagination conveniently invented to defend IR. The fact that he has bailed out of this dicussion the moment I started giving examples speaks of his confidence in his theory. Atleast the rest of you guys agree that he was indeed somewhat monotonous in the rhythm area rather than giving lame excuses.
  
  "Though the rythm doen't vary during the song's course"
  Thumburu, thats my point, thanks. 2 out of the 4 songs you havelisted indeed have somewhat unique rhythm pattern and so I wont complain even if it is somewhat monotnous. Hhavent lstened to Ppattu Kannam in a while, dont remember any exotic rhythm patterns in it. But in the same Kaaki chattai, other songs - vaaanile, vanithamani, kaNmaniye pesu etc. all have the standard patterns which dont vary much. So few examples you cull out here or there is not goingto change the overall percentage that much. So lets stop it here. I have listened to almost all songs you have listed.
  
  
• From: mythila (@ 193.88.72.130) on: Wed Sep 8 03:42:41 EDT 2004
  
  From September : y fight stopped suddenly? please continue
  
  Come September, you latecomer
  Appear after all the weary summer,
  just before the winding winter
  The pro/anti IR war simmer
  but never get over
  can u remain September ever?
  
  
• From: September (@ 202.54.153.21) on: Wed Sep 8 05:55:36 EDT 2004
  
  mythila, :-)
  
  
• From: Sriram (@ 136.2.1.153) on: Wed Sep 8 09:34:26 EDT 2004
  
  Vijay,
  
  I do not think it can be defined as "lack of creativity" if an album has same type of rhythm patterns. I would like to call it as "one album - one theme".
  
  I have a feeling that lately IR's creations miss that "beauty" or "soul" - which captivated us during 70s and 80s. His music might have got complex, but surely, there is something missing in it. I do not get that - I am not sure of the word - feeling.
  
  Complexcity does not make a MD popular in film music, but beauty does.
  
  I can identify one song which had that "beauty" - "Oliyile Theivadhu Devadhaiya" - from Azhagi.
  My point is - Complexcity does not always mean great.
  
  
• From: Anbesivam (@ 206.102.161.11) on: Wed Sep 8 11:16:16 EDT 2004
  
  Sriram,
  
  One thing that lacks is involvement in IR's music. I think he is really bored in doing movies as he has been doing it for quite some time.
  
  
• From: k (@ 64.173.9.71) on: Wed Sep 8 19:30:12 EDT 2004
  
  vijay, I STRONGLY suggest that you keep the discussion technical not personal.
  I will carry on the topic at my own leisure and refused to be dictated or provoked into spontaneous exchanges of outburts of posts.
  First, I would like to understand the rhythm in IR's songs. Then I will go into those 'unvarying rhythm' songs and see the content of WCM in those. That is the reason I wanted to continue discussing this in the 'Rhythm of Raja' thread.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Wed Sep 8 23:47:34 EDT 2004
  
  Sriram, I have clearly said in my earlier post that it is NOT lack of creativity.
  As for one album-one theme I dont think I agree with this. Sounds like another excuse for IR's mediocre effort. There have been IR albums where songs have differed vastly from one another not just in rhythm but in other aspects too. Also the same rhythm pattern gets repeated across several albums - would you then say, one theme-several albums? :-)
  
  k, you can do whatever you want. For someone who claimed to have understood IR better, I am surprised that you have just started trying to understanding his rhythm. Anyways, I believe you are just trying hard for some justification for IR's mediocre efforts(as you always do). Carry on.
  
  
• From: Vel (@ 210.212.240.19) on: Thu Sep 9 00:31:30 EDT 2004
  
  k,
  
  Your temperament & level of patience in expressing your views clearly and also in a mild 'n gentle manner, is astounding and is well appreciated…....Something that most of us here would like to emulate.
  
  After years in this forum, I just wanted to say this to you...We need more of such DFers in this forum, irrespective of IR or ARR camp. Thanks for firmly maintaining this trait of yours till date.
  
  
• From: Prashanth (@ 207.46.50.71) on: Thu Sep 9 06:58:58 EDT 2004
  
  SP Bala showers praises on Maestro Ilaiyaraaja each time his number is sung by the participants in Paadalani Undhi, a Telugu programme on Maa TV in the same lines of Raaj Geetham on Raj TV.
  
  Last week's final had Hariharan and ShivaMani as judges. When asked how it is working with Raaja, Hariharan simply said, "Whenever I sing for Raaja, I get a feeling of having done something to feel totally satisfied and happy about, for that day".
  
  This testifies and glorifies Hariharan's adoration for Raaja.
  
  When ever any participant sings any Raaja's composition, at the end of it, Sp Bala tells the audience some (technicalities)elements in composing the song and how he is blessed to have sung for a GREAT composer like Raaja.
  
  I have never seen him going into the details of any other composer's songs in all these episodes. Perhaps, he knows, there is nothing to write home about.
  
  Interesting yeh??????
  
  
• From: Jagan (@ 61.11.73.84) on: Thu Sep 9 08:00:07 EDT 2004
  
  Prashant,
  
  You are right and SPB does mention about IR's composition very often during these types of shows.
  
  There is more to understand Raja's music than discussing about rythm patterns etc. Ultimately it all lands to how a song is presented and IMHO there is no doubt about IR's ability as compared to other MD's.
  
  
• From: k (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Thu Sep 9 13:15:52 EDT 2004
  
  VEl, thanks for the encouragement.
  I have posted in the rhythm of raja thread (done for the day :)). please see.
  
  

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